Human Resources Committee on June 3rd, 2014

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much.

You pointed out the need for labour market forums. We seem to be tilting the field, so to speak. We hear a lot of talk about employers who pay into EI, but we very rarely hear about the workers, who are also paying into EI, and the exclusion of workers, it seems, in determining how these funds should be used in regard to also getting their input, and there's also how labour has been shut out of a lot of these conversations.

But the fact that really fascinated me was that I know that up to 0.8% of the EI surplus can be used to expand LMDAs. What was the dollar amount you said? How long has it been since that dollar amount has been the same?

[Mary-Lou Donnelly]

That 0.8% translates roughly into $4.4 billion annually, but we're only using $1.9 billion. That has been in effect since 1996.

When we did a little research the other day on how much $1.9 billion in 2014 translates into from 1996 dollars, it was much less than the $1.9 billion—

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you.

That really brings home the point that for the last 15 years we've kept the dollar amount static. Maybe that's why Canadians who are looking for assistance are hurting so much. It may also explain why this government runs so quickly to bring in temporary foreign workers instead of investing in growing the skill sets at home.

I also agree with you that we need real data. What kind of data do you think would help to inform programming?

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

I think we'll have to hold your answer on this. We've exceeded the five minutes, so we'll move on to our second questioner, and that's Mr. Armstrong.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here.

Mary-Lou, you talked a bit about labour market information. You've attended the round tables that we've done so far across the country, and this is something that always comes up. Can you talk from the employee's perspective about how difficult it is as an employee to get appropriate labour market information in order to make proper career decisions?

[Mary-Lou Donnelly]

It is very difficult.

If you're living in Nova Scotia and you're training for something, you don't necessarily have that solid, hard, accurate information on what is available in other areas or even what is available within your own province. We really need to have that really strong information.

The labour stakeholders feel that Stats Canada is one very important respected entity and that the information that comes from Stats Canada is very good; it's reliable. We would like to see more detail come out so that we know what's happening in Nova Scotia in the job market, so that we know where the vacancies are and what types of workers they need, and so that we know in Saskatchewan what they need. That is exactly what we need to know so that when young men and women are going into these trades for this training and they're looking for jobs, they can have a really good pan-Canadian view of what's going on and make decisions there.

I think there's a danger in forcing people to pick up their bags, their families, their homes, and everything else and just plopping them into a community where they think there may be jobs. Before making such an important life decision, which affects their families as well as themselves, I think people must have really clear and accurate information across the country so that they can make the best decision for them, as well as for their economic status and the country.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

You also touched on labour mobility. We also hear a lot about that from the employees' perspective. We heard in the last panel that the government should be looking at doing some things to make it easier for employees to travel, such as travel grants or using some tax policy, and there are probably some other opportunities that government has.

When you spoke about it, you spoke about aligning curricula so that you would be certified in more areas in the province, and you called for a national certification program. We're seeing the start of that with what's going on in Atlantic Canada and what's going on in the west. Can you bridge those two in terms of what we can do for the individual employees and also what we can do to try and align some of the strengths?

[Mary-Lou Donnelly]

Just for clarification, I spoke of a national harmonization program, so I'm not sure if I'm the one to say the curriculum should be the same all across the country. As an educator, we know that different areas have specific things that they want to relay, that they want to teach, and that they want to educate their people on.

I think that the two can be bridged. I think that there can be a real balance there.

First of all, we're a very large country, but we're talking about labour mobility across the country. The reality is that people move from one end of the country to another, so in order to do that, they need to know that they're going to be qualified when they get out west, if they've made that life-altering decision to pick up their families and move.

With that in mind, I feel very strongly that when the partners come together, they can figure out what that national strategy looks like and how much influence the national curriculum, as you say, has. At the same time, keep it unique to the provinces and let the provinces, of course, have the say that they also need.

So I think there's a real balance there, but I think that the information has to be good for people. It has to be solid, and I think that at the end of the day, they should be able to pick up and move. If you're a welder in Nova Scotia, you should be able to be a welder in Alberta.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

You have one minute.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Just really quickly, there's also mobility for older workers, workers who have been established and may lose their jobs in their thirties or forties—we've seen that in the last few years since the recession. One of the challenges a lot of them face in labour mobility if they're actually going to relocate, is transferring pensions. Those have been a challenge for many workers. Can you comment on that? Have you heard that from your stakeholders?

[Mary-Lou Donnelly]

I haven't heard that specifically, but I'm fully aware about pensions, having worked a lot with pensions at the Nova Scotia Teachers Union. I don't have that information to share with you only because it hasn't really come up in my conversations.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you.

You talked about the labour market partners forums. Can you quickly discuss what type of structure you'd be looking at there and how those would be useful?

[Mary-Lou Donnelly]

I think they'd be useful because it's all about consultation. As I said, people want to have their voices heard, especially if they have a vested interest in what's going on. I think it's very important that these forums be established. I don't have the number one model in the world, but I know that there is a model in Quebec; there is a model in Newfoundland. Those are two models. That's a point de départ right there.

We can start there. We can build on it. I think what's important is that they include all the partners in this; that they include all levels of government, employers, and employees; that it's consistent; that it's not just a one-off; and that these forums meet on a regular basis. Those details can be determined by the people who come together to set them up. I think it's really important, number one, to be listening to each other so that we can make the decisions that we need to make.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Mr. Cuzner, you have five minutes.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start off in Regina, if I could, the home of the CFL champion Roughriders. Go, Riders.

Just to acknowledge, first, that the community that you folks work with, your organization works with, I would suggest, is probably one of the toughest. The number of barriers and the types of challenges that your clients deal with, and you made a comment on this in your remarks, that the short period of time really doesn't have as much impact and they'd have to come back again and again, and the extended period of time.... A lot of these clients would have had little structure, little direction early on in life, so you're trying to impact on that.

Give me an indication about some of the skills that they come to you with. Reflect on their life skills or lack of, their numeracy, literacy. There's been some talk about the concern that support for types of programs here have been lost in the LMAs. Should they be addressed in the LMDAs or whatever? Just some comments on that....

[Lindsay Manko]

I think, essentially, when it comes to numeracy and literacy, it mostly comes down to a confidence issue, and in order to build that confidence, it does take time. I think you could talk a little bit better about how we could transfer that into....

[Carlo Bizzarri]

Yes, we often get young men and women who are between the ages of 19 and 30 who can barely do math, yet they officially have grade 9 and 10. Likewise in literacy, we have these young men and women who officially have grades 9 and 10—some have grade 12—who can't write a paragraph.

Now in the marketplace, communication is extremely important in writing, reading, computer skills, and all of that, so we are trying to bring them up to that level. However, the big problem we are facing is that the environment where they come from is our enemy. Just to give you an example, on Monday we bring them in. They come to work on Monday, and it's a difficult day on Monday because they come from struggles on Friday and Saturday—

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

It's a difficult day here on Monday.

[Carlo Bizzarri]

—then we start bringing them up to speed, and lo and behold, we send them back to the same damned environment, and on Monday we have to start all over again. To us, it is very clear that these people need skills and they need also to be helped in terms of this home environment. What they come with is a desire. They are sick and tired of being poor, so they come to our place and say, “Look, I want to make it”, and often, as we go through these seven months, it is challenging. Nonetheless, we would not make it less challenging because the reality of work is what it is. We can't deny to them that they have to show up on time every day and you have to be working. So we are the organization that allows them to pick up all of this over time.

But I also want to underscore the fact that we have to do something about the environment where they come from. I also want to say in conclusion that this is a very sizable pool of potential labour and we can't discard it or just not pay attention. Otherwise the cost of carrying these people around, in our estimation, is four times or five times what we would need to train them.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Do I have time for a quick one for Ms. Donnelly?

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

You do.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

It has been suggested that training opportunities, funds for training, should be decoupled from EI benefits. It has been suggested by a number of witnesses that you shouldn't have to be receiving EI benefits in order to draw support funds for training. Do you want to comment on that?

Then the other thing, and I know it has been commented on by the government members, is that the current situation with the fund for EI is in pretty good shape right now, but you have to look at it over five years and average it over five years. Should the trend continue with the pool being increased, do you think it's more pertinent to reduce the premiums that employers and employees pay, or to use that money to help train those on EI?

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

You will actually have to hold that answer, I'm sorry. Mr. Cuzner spent quite a bit of time there with the preamble.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

It was a great question.