Human Resources Committee on June 5th, 2014

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you. I've heard from your office, Mr. Fréchette, that between the 1990s and early 2000s there was some pretty comprehensive data. We also know we have a government that has a slight allergy—I would say acute—to data and information-based decision-making. So what kind of specific data do we need to collect right now in order to make informed decisions for the future when we're planning, whether it's for immigration, temporary foreign worker programs, or I would say, most importantly, training our own labour force, our young people, specifically, to enter the labour force?

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

I would say that the first thing is to have regular data and not just on some aspects of the labour market. I mentioned, and quoted from, a report done in 2009 that was chaired by Don Drummond. I just quoted some parts of that report. But Don Drummond, the chair of the committee, estimated that to have very good data on all the topics that you mentioned, it would cost about $39 million. Whether or not it's right, I don't know. But it's probably a very accurate number in terms of the cost of having regular...on a yearly basis. So this is an investment, in terms of the labour market and to better understand what is going on, for parliamentarians to make these informed decisions on various programs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you. That's the end of the five minutes.

We go on to Mr. Armstrong.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here.

You talked a lot in your opening statement about labour market information and the fact that we have vague information currently. You talked a little, in answering Ms. Sims' questions, about some of the things we need to do to try to get better labour market information.

One question I have is this. What would the provincial role be in this? We have been conducting round tables across the country. We are hearing about labour market information and we know that we need better labour market information, but much of that information is going to be aligned with the provinces.

Do you have any suggestions or recommendations or comments for how we can work better with our provincial partners to get a better and more robust and complete sense of the types of labour information we have in Canada?

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

I will ask Mostafa to answer that question. Every time that people ask me for recommendations, since we don't really make recommendations, I ask Mostafa, so as to keep myself out of trouble.

[Mostafa Askari]

If we need national data, and that is what we need for the labour market, we have a national statistical agency. They are very good at what they are doing. They have a very good international reputation. So really, the focus should be on Statistics Canada and how they can collect that kind of information.

Regarding the survey mentioned—the workplace survey that was conducted in 2011—you need that type of information on a continuous basis. Every year that survey has to be conducted, so that you provide a time series of information on different aspects of the labour market. That would give you the ability and capacity to see exactly what is going on where, in which occupation, in which part of the country. Then you can target your programs in that way. That would be more effective.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Moving on to the LMDAs specifically, one thing we have heard across the country is that we need to have a better system of accountability of the money being spent and how it is being spent. It is being administered by the provinces through a $2 billion transfer that goes to the provinces.

Have you done any analysis, or do you have any concerns—I guess I don't want to ask for recommendations, because you don't give any—or can you identify any issues with the current way that this money is accounted for by the provinces?

[Mostafa Askari]

Do you mean the money on the job grant, or...?

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

No, I mean under the LMDAs, the labour market development agreements, which is what—

[Mostafa Askari]

No, we have not done any studies on that.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Okay.

Concerning federal transfers to the provinces in general, do you think that the federal government gets enough accountability, that enough strings are attached to some of these transfers, or would you like to see a change in the way these are done?

[Mostafa Askari]

In general with the transfer, I don't think there are many links, actually. The money is transferred to the provinces and they normally spend it as they wish, whether it's for the health program or educational or social programs or equalization. Health is a little bit different kind of case. Obviously the Canada Health Act would have control over how money is spent, but I don't think there are sufficient links and strings attached to the rest of them.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Okay.

I'm going back to labour market information. One of the things you brought up in your discussion concerned the need for real-time labour market information. You say Statistics Canada has the ability to collect this real-time information, if they have the resources available to manage it.

Can you talk specifically about what type of information they would look at and what type of analysis they would do to evaluate that data?

[Mostafa Askari]

In the case of the kind of data I mentioned, they get information for different occupations in different parts of the country. You can drill down to detail, for example, on chefs in one city in Saskatchewan or in Alberta—to whether there are enough chefs there or whether there is a shortage, and that kind of information—to get to the details of different occupations.

Right now, what we are seeing is the idea that there is a shortage, but we really do not have the data to see whether in one part of the country you have shortages of one kind of occupation or not; there's just a general sense. The temporary foreign workers program, obviously, is country-wide for all occupations, so it's very hard to know whether it is actually targeting the areas it is supposed to target.

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

Let me add something, Mr. Chair, very quickly.

The questions in the 2011 survey from Statistics Canada are really enlightening, in terms of the kind of information they elicit. All of this information on the questions you asked is there. This is exactly what we need to do any analysis.

I can provide this information, or the analysts for your committee can probably find it.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

On that, you're saying that Statistics Canada already has the ability to collect the data. They need to have better resources to actually manage the data, to analyze the data, and then distribute it. What length of time would that take if they had the resources available? Are we going to get enough real-time data from the current sources that they use, or they used in that survey?

[Mostafa Askari]

I'm not sure but real-time data is obviously very difficult to get because real-time data, in my mind, means that you have the data for this month. Surveys normally take time to conduct and then it takes time to make them ready. So for example, if you survey on a continuous basis, you may now have data for 2013, and then if you continue that, the next year you will have the data for 2014. For example, the labour force data that we get for the unemployment rate, the unemployment numbers that come monthly, they do that survey on a continuous basis. So they have the capacity to provide that information, but for this kind of detailed information, again, it might be a little bit longer lag. Still it would be extremely useful to have that kind of detailed information.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

We have heard, from employer groups, from employees, and from groups that are trying to provide training for different communities across the country, that there was a real gap with the labour market information and the way it was collected before. They also said there was too much of a lag to actually make good business decisions if you're an employer, or good training decisions if you're a potential employee.

So are there any suggestions of how we can expand the amount of data that Statistics Canada has taken into account before, to try to include some more up-to-date information before we even begin the analysis? Is there any way we could shorten the period of time that the analysis takes to try to provide a real picture of the labour market because the labour market moves so quickly?

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

I'm going to have to ask you to hold the answer for that. You're welcome to address that in a further round of questioning but we're out of time there. Your seven minutes are up, Mr. Armstrong.

We will go on to Mr. Cuzner for seven minutes.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks very much for being here. I'll probably get around to it because I have a couple of questions similar to what Scott was asking.

Your comments up front were enlightening, obviously, but you know, the actions of the government.... We've seen an incredible increase in the number of temporary foreign workers. We've seen changes to EI that have had a devastating impact on some seasonal industries, especially in rural communities. We've seen the development of the Canada job grant, which really ended up taking money from LMAs and that has hurt programs in provinces that provided numeracy and literacy skills. These are fairly significant changes, all sort of based on the fact that the Prime Minister said there was a skills shortage crisis in this country. He must have been taking that from somewhere. There's your analysis, and Drummond's analysis; there are plenty out there, but he must have been driven by something.

Where would he have come up with that type of opinion at that time in order to enter into these measures that he has taken over the last couple of years?

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

I can take the first part of the question.

When PBO staff appeared before the finance committee, we heard that during the pre-budget consultation members of the finance committee heard that there was a shortage and there was a skills mismatch. It's a form of data but we don't know if it's perfect information. So basically what we're confronted with is various sources of information. Is it perfect information? Sometimes no, sometimes yes. I think what we have right now is some kind of imperfect information, not based on, as Mostafa mentioned, really solid Statistics Canada information.

CFIB, for example, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, said that in some areas—and more than just what we mentioned—there were some skills mismatches and shortages. But that's why we need solid data from an institution, from an organization like Statistics Canada to really make informed decisions, not the PBO but parliamentarians and policy-makers, to really make up their minds and make good decisions about future programs. As the old saying goes—I used to say this to many people in another life, and it was good in agriculture—if you cannot measure it, you cannot manage it.

This really applies to everything.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Regarding the recommendations that came out of the Drummond report, are you comfortable in commenting on how many of those have been implemented?

I guess the next thing would be, would you see a benefit to the committee in inviting Mr. Drummond to the committee as well?

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

Mr. Drummond is a very bright economist. He's a very well-recognized economist. He would really be a good witness.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Do you want to comment on the report and what has been implemented from the report?

[Mostafa Askari]

No. I don't really know how much of that has been implemented, but my sense is that it wasn't really.... It sort of stopped after it was released.