Human Resources Committee on Oct. 21st, 2014

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I have some questions about the CPP. We know the survivor benefits of the OAS, but OAS is taxpayer-supported whereas CPP is actually supported by employers and employees.

I was reading a couple of days ago about income splitting in the United States. The reason they have income splitting in the United States is that there was a court case that determined there was a mutual benefit in a marriage or a union, such that one of the two partners of that union would benefit by a common or mutual benefit of the two.

So I guess the question is this. With respect to CPP, could there be any challenge to the right of benefit because it's been paid for by the person? How would you say it? It doesn't really belong to the taxpayers or the government. It's actually a benefit that has been prepaid by an individual. So it would be more in a case where one spouse murdered the other, but could that spouse challenge the fact that she or he had a right of benefit? Could that be challenged under the charter?

[Dominique La Salle]

The survivor benefit is essentially an insurance benefit that one gets because of the death of a spouse or, in the case of an orphan, the death of a parent. The fact that the contributions are paid by the individual and the employer is really for the retirement part of the plan. This legislation leaves unaffected the possibility of receiving one's own retirement entitlement based on one's own contribution. So in that sense I think, sir, it could be challenged but I don't think it would be a successful challenge.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

The government has already taken action to suspend the payment of OAS benefits to prison inmates, and in this regard the OAS allowance to the survivor. Could you explain what this bill does that hasn't already been done with regards to the previous actions of the government?

[Dominique La Salle]

Bill C-31 is the bill that suspended the OAS payment to inmates essentially because the prison system already provides for basic needs. This bill prevents killers from benefiting from their crime. The distinction would be that under C-31, if someone has killed a spouse and is an inmate and does not receive OAS, when this person turns 60, in absence of this bill, they could receive the survivor allowance under OAS. This bill would prevent that. It's adding to the provision if you like.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

That's all I have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you, Mr. Mayes.

Just so committee members know, I am extending the time for this witness by one more round of questioning for Mr. Cuzner. That's going to eat into a little bit of our time for the next group of witnesses, but I think it's appropriate that everyone has a turn here with the departmental officials.

Mr. Cuzner, for five minutes.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I'll try to get three questions in.

I'd asked Mr. Van Kesteren this question. How many people do we know are receiving a benefit or have received benefits in the past?

[Marianna Giordano]

We presently have an existing policy under which when the department is informed, we do not pay benefits, survivor's or children's benefits, if the person has have been convicted of murdering their parents. Right now we do have that policy, which is very similar to what's in the bill.

We don't have specific numbers but we do have numbers of people to whom we have denied benefits because they have applied and we were informed. So we can say—

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

So you're saying nobody is getting it now?

[Marianna Giordano]

I couldn't say that. I would say it's only upon the minister being informed that we would stop the benefit and render them ineligible.

So on average, maybe we render one or two a year ineligible for the benefit because of murder.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

So it's being addressed now through policy.

[Marianna Giordano]

Yes.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

So you see a need for this legislation.

[Dominique La Salle]

It will help to make things transparent. We rely on being informed. The minister relies on being informed, the reason being that the relationship between a murderer and spouse or children is not necessarily recorded. The kinship and so on, we don't have a basis there. So we rely on being informed. A benefit of this legislation is that it makes it more visible.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

So you see the legislation is necessary?

[Dominique La Salle]

I think it's very positive.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

So if it's necessary, why would it not have been brought forward before, through Pearson or Kim Campbell or a previous government?

[Dominique La Salle]

It's not for me to answer that question. But I might—

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

But the department would have been engaged on this years ago, certainly since Chris Charlton brought it forward.

[Dominique La Salle]

The major effort in building the CPP has been the large blocks of putting it on a financially sustainable basis and addressing the big issues, if you like.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Policy had taken care of this.

[Dominique La Salle]

That's how we looked at it.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you, Mr. Cuzner.

I thank the witnesses for being here on this private member's bill, and we will break while we welcome the next panel of witnesses for the last portion of our meeting.

[Dominique La Salle]

Thank you very much.