Human Resources Committee on Oct. 21st, 2014

[Heidi Illingworth]

I don't have any others that I can address at this time.

[Lenore Lukasik-Foss]

No, from a victim's perspective, absolutely not. I think this feels like a really clear thing we want to support and see happen.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Very good.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

On to Mr. Butt for five minutes.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, ladies. Thank you very much for being with us today, and more importantly, thank you to your organizations and everybody who is involved in your organizations for the great work that you are doing.

Certainly this government recognizes the fact that it's unfortunate that we do have quite a number of instances of domestic assault and, of course, abuse of both women and children. Admittedly, it's something that we have to do a better job trying to fix and in supporting victims and families in these cases. I think we've done quite a bit.

I'm sure I speak on behalf of all members of Parliament when I say thank you to your agencies for the tremendous work you are doing and for taking time to come to share your views on this private member's bill the committee is dealing with.

I think in your testimony you're certainly clear, but just so that it's absolutely clear, your position is that this bill, with the proposed amendments including manslaughter, is the appropriate way to go forward, that this bill will ensure that individuals who are committing crimes will not financially benefit in any way, shape, or form from committing that crime. So you have no concerns about the income support, let's say, for the individual who has perpetrated this crime, because they would be ineligible to collect these benefits. That's not a concern to your organizations at all.

[Heidi Illingworth]

No.

[Lenore Lukasik-Foss]

No.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

One of the things that I think is designed in this bill is that the perpetrator of the crime not be entitled to receive the benefits. One of the reasons I think that's important is that, unfortunately, most of the cases of domestic violence are predominantly against women and mothers, and that there are children involved.

One of the great things about this bill is that it would prevent the father, the husband, the partner—who is likely the perpetrator of the crime—from getting the benefits rather than the children, if they are underage. This bill is going to make sure the children are eligible to get the benefits and not the perpetrator. I'm assuming that's something you would support.

Maybe you can share some of your experiences in working with families of domestic violence, some of the financial challenges that they have, and how important it would be to make sure that these financial benefits go to the children of the murdered mother, in this case, and not go to the partner, husband, father, who would otherwise be entitled to them if this bill were not the law.

[Heidi Illingworth]

Yes. I would say that absolutely, it's important that the children be able to access the benefits as orphans through a guardian if they're underage, and that the money not be collected by the person who's incarcerated.

I'll let Lenore speak to the broader issue of supporting victims on a daily basis, because I know that's what she's doing.

[Lenore Lukasik-Foss]

Yes. There are so many impacts. When you think of these children, they've lost their mom and they're dealing with that and the financial implications if both parents were working. Now the dad's incarcerated, or the partner or some male figure in the home is now incarcerated.

So you think of what's happening financially with these kids and emotionally, of course. I'm extremely concerned about the kids, but also I'm pleased to know that there will be financial supports for the kids. They will not be directed to the person who killed the woman, their mom, but the kids will be eligible. I think that's very important because there are so many issues at that point, and financially that is a very challenging time for the family.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Yes, there's no question about that. I know that in my area—I represent a riding just outside of Toronto, Mississauga, Ontario—we have two excellent organizations that I'm familiar with. One is called Interim Place and the other Armagh House. Both are doing tremendous work with families. You're probably aware of both of them, as well as the Peel Committee Against Woman Abuse, which is also is doing excellent advocacy work.

I know one of the challenges that we do have in all of these cases is resources, even though this government, under the Department of Justice and the ministry responsible for the status of women, has been increasing funding and so on.

I admire your expertise on this and just because you're here, can you give us a general sense—I know it's difficult to generalize—of the public perception now about violence against women and children? It seems to me that there is more awareness but that the caseload is not falling.

I'm certainly no expert on this, but I'd be interested to know from your perspective if there's more that we can be doing in awareness and understanding. I realize this bill is about benefits and legal issues and all of that, but there's a wider community perspective to all of this when we sit here as parliamentarians on these bills. Would you take a minute to do that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Actually, we're way over time.

That said, I think that there might be space for you to answer that question. This is a very collegial group. As you'll see, Mr. Cuzner might offer you that time from his time.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Chair. Thanks very much to both of you. Thank you for your presentations first, because they were informed and succinct.

Your amendment is well reasoned. It's excellent. I want to thank you for that and, as Mr. Butt said, for the work that you do. You deal with an ongoing input of tragedy, so what you do is noble and it's important. I thank you and commend you for the work that you do.

The officials have addressed this bill, and we're in support of it. Looking at Bill C-591 gives us the real lowdown, but for the benefit of the committee, could you share with us the most egregious example of where somebody you know of would have received a benefit as a result of murdering a spouse. Are you aware of those cases?

[Heidi Illingworth]

I am aware of the one that was, I think, brought forward in the media a lot around this bill. I believe her name is Ms. Fetterkind, whose father murdered her mother. It's quite an old case now, but she understood that he had been receiving a spousal benefit for something like 28 years while he was incarcerated. It's a case out of British Columbia. I would have to look through my files, but I'm certain we would have been involved in others. Off the top of my head, that's the one that comes to mind with respect to this bill.

[Lenore Lukasik-Foss]

Prior to working at Sexual Assault Centre, I worked in women's shelters, so my experience for many years was primarily domestic violence. We would hear from colleagues across the province. I think it was not as well known, so you'd hear about that odd case or someone would say, “Could this be right? This can't be right”. A family member would contact the shelter and say, “We think this is happening”. Because of privacy, it would be hard for us to confirm things sometimes, so I think that's the difficulty. But I remember hearing about it back during my time working with victims of domestic violence within the shelter movement. Anytime I talk about this, people are so surprised that it could happen. I think you mentioned the Homer Simpson moment earlier, or one of your esteemed colleagues did. Whenever I raise it, I think people are genuinely shocked and surprised that this is a possibility.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I think that, at least with the legislation, they seem to be getting it most. They weren't able to say exactly how many cases each year they could identify that would be getting away with it. With the legislation, maybe there can be a more formal process that could trigger the response sort of thing.

That's it for me.

Thank you again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you.

Given the time, we'll move on to our next questioner, but maybe we could revisit Mr. Butt's question while it's perhaps still in your minds.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Perhaps you wouldn't mind just providing an update, a bit of profile, on where we are now generally. I'm sure you'll report more on the area you serve, the Hamilton area, but generally it's what you're hearing from others across the country about this issue.

[Lenore Lukasik-Foss]

Yes.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

We do a lot of advertising and stuff on this, so you'd think trends would go down. I mean you advertise about people not smoking and instances go down, but it seems to me the message isn't getting through as much on domestic violence, so I just wondered about that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Would you like to make your comments on that?

[Lenore Lukasik-Foss]

Yes, sure.

I'll start, and then maybe I'll turn it over to my colleague.

I started working in this field about 26 years ago, so it's been a long time. Interestingly, though, when I first started working and I would tell people what I was doing, people shook their head. They'd never heard of it; they didn't really understand; or they'd make a joke. I'm pleased to report that's changed and that most people I talk to now have an awareness of sexual assault domestic violence. I get a lot fewer jokes, although I still get them, sadly.

What I've seen is that there's greater awareness of the issue. People are talking about it more, though about sexual violence a little bit less so. It's still something that isn't discussed. When I go to parties, sometimes people politely walk away when I say where I work. It is something that's still uncomfortable for people to talk about.

I know when I worked in the shelters, we were often full, but I know in my community—I certainly can't speak for all communities—it is nearly impossible to get a bed in a shelter right now, and I hear this consistently. So when I have people calling me up saying, “Do you know how to get a bed there?”, I'm, like, “No, I have no magic wand to get a bed either”. I know our shelters are full. I know when I've looked at the national trends, the studies of all the shelters, this is not unusual. Most shelters are full of children, and that's another really shocking fact people aren't aware of.

For me, yes, there is more awareness, but in terms of the underlying foundational issues that are causing violence.... We certainly know there are things that make violence spike, but we haven't really gotten at the root causes yet, unfortunately. The good news is that for women in these generations, compared to 50 or 60 years ago, there is an option. There are places to go, and there are supports, but it's still a really desperate, sad picture in our country, which is shocking.

[Heidi Illingworth]

Yes, I would absolutely agree. I would add that I still really see it as a hidden problem, a problem we're not comfortable talking about. Victims certainly don't report it immediately, and it takes a long time to get the support or get to the point where you feel you can access a shelter, perhaps, and finally leave.

I think we're seeing more and more high-profile instances. Certainly the sports leagues in the U.S. have had a few incidents this summer that have brought more attention to these issues, but we have a lot of work to do in preventing this crime in the first place, as Lenore was saying, including working with young school-age children around respect in relationships, starting at a young age and talking about how to solve our problems without using violence, and things like that. We need to do a better job throughout the school systems for sure, and as Lenore said, we need more funding for beds in these shelters because they are full. That's something we hear often at our centre as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you for that. I felt it was important that we get those views on the table.

Now we'll move to Mr. Maguire.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

I was curious as to the answers to the questions by my colleague, Mr. Butt, as well, and so I appreciate your answers. I also appreciate your being here today, and for your presentations, and also for the work you do as organizations.

You've been very clear on this particular Bill C-591 in regard to your stand and to the amendments and everything else. I want to ask a question about the type of work your organizations do, and I'd like each of you to respond just for the record as to what other types of advocacy activities you participate in and what other areas you work in besides this particular one.