Human Resources Committee on Oct. 30th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Welcome to meeting 35 of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

This is Thursday, October 30, 2014. We're here today to continue our review of Bill C-247, an act to expand the mandate of Service Canada in respect of the death of a Canadian citizen or Canadian resident.

Committee members, because of the timing, we're going to have seven-minute presentations from our witnesses. We have three witnesses. We'll have one round of five-minute questioning and then we're going to move into clause-by-clause consideration, which will shorten somewhat the time we have with witnesses. Then, hopefully, we will have time right at the end of the meeting to deal with a couple of pieces of committee business.

Without further ado, I'd like to introduce our witnesses and welcome them.

First from CARP, we have Janet Gray, the chairperson of the Ottawa chapter. From the National Pensioners Federation, we have Barry Thorsteinson, who is the past president. By video conference from Waterloo, Ontario, we have Marny Williams of the Bereavement Ontario Network.

Welcome to our witnesses. You have up to seven minutes for your presentation.

We will start with Janet Gray.

[Janet Gray, Chairperson, Ottawa Chapter, CARP]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Canadian Association of Retired Persons, also known as CARP, is a non-partisan, not-for-profit national organization, with 300,000 members across the country, in 60 different chapters. We are committed to a new vision of aging for Canada, promoting social change that will bring financial security, equitable access to health care, and freedom from discrimination. Our mandate is to promote and protect the interests, rights, and quality of life for all Canadians as we age.

My name is Janet Gray. For the last seven years I've been the chairperson of the Ottawa chapter of CARP. As the daughter of two aging parents and as a professional financial planner, I have personally helped my own family and clients with estate settlement and/or with advice on the process to follow on death notification. As the chair of over 6,000 CARP members here in Ottawa, I also get asked by members how to simplify their government transactions, especially at a time when their emotions are high and the task is daunting.

I'm here today to support Bill C-247, an act to expand the mandate of Service Canada in respect of the death of a Canadian citizen or Canadian resident.

Currently, Canadians are obligated to take unnecessary measures to notify the government on the death of a loved one. A bereaved Canadian must notify multiple government departments, potentially over 30 different departments in some cases, and often requiring multiple forms of documentation for proof of death.

Some of the departments and programs include: CPP, OAS, GIS, social insurance number, Passport Canada, GST/HST payments, veterans disability program, death benefit, Elections Canada, citizenship card, earning loss benefit, Canada child tax benefit, and working income tax benefit, just to name a few.

The consequences of not notifying any of these could potentially lead to requests for repayments or other government penalties years later.

CARP welcomes Bill C-247 in creating a single point of contact for Canadians. The bill will streamline the currently uncoordinated fragmented system. It will remove unnecessary stress and burden of repeated notifications to multiple government departments. Instead, the bill would create a clear path for Canadians during a difficult time. Canadians do not accept that the government does not have the ability to share information across their own departments, they only see one government.

CARP members would support Bill C-247 as it will remove unnecessary costs for Canadians, as well as cost inefficiencies for government. In a CARP poll prior to the 2013 budget, CARP members said that they wanted a budget that promoted a vision of a fiscally responsible, sustainable, and caring society. The majority said that eliminating waste and inefficiency is the best way to fund this vision of Canada.

Bill C-247 is a low-hanging fruit that all parties can support as it benefits all Canadians. CARP is asking that this bill be enacted right away.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you for your presentation.

Mr. Thorsteinson.

[Barry Thorsteinson, Past President, National Pensioners Federation]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and committee members.

It's an honour to be here today to represent the National Pensioners Federation, of which I am past president. For those of you not familiar with the federation, it's in its 70th year now after being founded on the Prairies. It's a national organization with large groups as diverse as the British Columbia Retired Teachers' Association to East Margaree Seniors' Club, close to Roger Cuzner's home riding. You can check that out with the folks when you're there next.

We have 250 organizations across the country, representing about a million members. We're the only organization representing seniors that has an annual open democratic convention where we elect our officers and debate our policies in open and public debate, and by democratic vote. I'm here representing the executive board and President Herb John, who can't be with us today.

Simply put, we're pleased to see the progress of this bill and we're here to voice our support. I'm not going to repeat all the same specific reasons why one point of contact is such a strangely revolutionary development in this day and age, but somehow it still is upon the challenge of parliamentarians to enact.

We encourage you pass the legislation for all the reasons that have already been mentioned by my colleague opposite. I had a few points to single out, but they touch on the same specifics. I'm sure this committee has been canvassing those very same points time and time again since the introduction of the bill by the honourable member from Guelph.

I did have a few points of concern, however. One of the questions I have—and I'm sure you've got a good answer for this—is why can't we just do this simply, administratively within the minister's purview now in human resources? It's an administrative feature really that connects all the dots online, with today's technology, within the Government of Canada. One would think it would be an administrative change that doesn't require parliamentary action. However, not being as experienced as the committee members present on what's necessary legally, I'm sure you know what you're doing with having a bill to enact the necessary changes.

Given that a bill is necessary, then trying to think it through, we're also wondering if it needs an amendment for any potential legal challenges down the road after the bill is presumably passed by Parliament. For instance, a very resourceful and energetic lawyer in the legal community might be keen on privacy issues and might say you didn't put anything explicitly in the bill to override any privacy concerns.

It shouldn't be a concern, these are all federal government departments, but you don't want to see any delays in the implementation of the bill due to any potential legal challenges down the road. Whether an amendment is in order or not, I'll leave that in the hands of much more experienced and wise parliamentarians than I could possibly imagine.

Although CPP has been mentioned as one of the many points that would be affected by this, we're also wondering about the automatic triggering of the death benefit under the Canada Pension Plan. We are wondering whether or not that can be quickly dispatched with by that particular pension plan oversight to the executor of the estate after the point of contact has been made, or whether there still has to be a separate application. We're not sure that the legislation provides for that, but you may want to specifically look at that.

We're hopeful, with the British experience already well known and some of the material that's known to this committee on at least one G-8 country that's already had experience with this, that it can be quickly implemented in the days ahead.

Lastly, a note of fondness for the all-party support that this bill has received to date. I hope it remains that way. It's certainly refreshing to see, considering the last time I was here on Bill C-23 on the alleged Fair Elections Act.

I'll leave it at that. Thank you for the time. If you have any questions, please submit them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

We move on to Ms. Williams by video conference.

[Marny Williams, Vice-Chair, Bereavement Ontario Network]

I wish to thank you for the opportunity to speak to Bill C-247, and the importance of having one point of contact for the bereaved when it comes to death notification.

I have read and listened to Frank Valeriote's presentation about the practical benefits of Bill C-247 and agree that it will reduce costs associated with finalizing estates for both the families and the government. But I'm here to talk to you about the emotional benefits of this bill.

I've been involved in the bereavement community for 12 years. I entered the world of grief when my husband died after a brief six-week battle with cancer. Since that time, I've worked hard on my own personal grief journey to rebuild my life for myself and my children, but I've also worked professionally. I facilitated support groups for nine years. I received my certificate in grief and bereavement from Western University, and I work for a local funeral home providing bereavement support.

I am also the founder of a non-profit that specifically supports widows and widowers with children at home. I come here today as the vice-chair of the Bereavement Ontario Network. I bring to you 12 years of stories from the many families with whom I've had the privilege to walk alongside.

In Mr. Valeriote's report, he states that having one point of contact will assist the senior population. I would like to expand on that and say that it will benefit anyone at any age who is trying to cope with the death of a loved one. I will speak to my personal story.

At the age of 30, I found myself a widow and solo parent to two children aged three years and three months old. My world had been completely turned upside down and inside out. I was so devastated by the death of my husband, Keith, and the reality of supporting my children through their grief, that I didn't have the time or knowledge or desire to struggle through the multitude of paperwork that was required.

I was also in a financial crisis. I was a stay-at-home mom and my husband, Keith, was the main breadwinner. When he died, that income was also lost. The reality of being so young and not having ever experienced the logistical side of death, I did not have the knowledge or education of what needed to be done when someone dies.

Deemed disposition, final tax return, survivor benefits, these were all terms that I'd never heard of before and didn't know they even existed, but now they were a part of my new reality. I was lucky to have my brother-in-law to assist me through the paperwork, but not everyone has that support. This is my story, but sadly there are hundreds more like it.

When a loved one dies, the immediate family begins a journey of grief that they are unprepared for. The world as they knew has been dramatically changed and the family is now left to mourn the loss of their loved one. Grief is a combination of emotional and practical hardship.

The emotional heartache and pain that is felt by the family can bring on feelings of anxiety, anger, confusion, and sadness, to name a few. Many do not think of the practical hardship that comes as a result of the death. Immediate family members must take on the roles and responsibilities that the person who died contributed to the family.

For me, that meant taking on all the duties of the home and car maintenance, daily finances, and raising children as a solo parent, at the same that I was grieving the death of my husband. I did not have the time or desire to work through the legalities. When you are newly bereaved, the emotional toll of having to tell multiple strangers that someone you loved so deeply has died feels like a cruel punishment.

Many of these families are still trying to process the death and reality of the new world. Standing in line in a government office and sometimes, unfortunately, being greeted by less than compassionate people can feel like adding salt to the wound. Having to share the devastating news with only one person will help to lessen the burden for these families.

Ironically, this past Tuesday night, I was facilitating a bereavement support group. As we were going around and seeing how everyone's week was, one of the ladies shared her frustration with having to deal with a $61 cheque that was issued from the government after her husband died.

Three months ago when she received the cheque, she called to report the error. She was told how to deal with the cheque and followed the instructions exactly. Now, three months later, she received another letter with further instructions. When she called the office she was told by the person on the phone that they could not help her until they received a copy of the will. She spent the next day drafting a letter, finding past paperwork, copying documents, and mailing this package back to the government office. All of this time, frustration, and anger for only $61. Again, this is just one story of many.

Bill C-247 is about one point of contact for death notification for government departments. But it is important to remember that when someone dies, it is not just the government that needs to know.

There are financial institutions, investment companies, credit cards, insurance companies, places of employment, provincial departments like the Ministry of Transport, and legalities such as changing the deed of the home and writing a new will, just to name a few.

Each one of these must be notified of the death and then the resulting paperwork to be processed. Each one is a harsh reminder that your loved one has died.

Bill C-247 is one small yet impactful step that can help ease the emotional burdens felt by these families. Grief is an underappreciated, misunderstood emotion that affects all aspects of your life. Grief is a force that needs attention in order for the bereaved to begin to heal. It takes a village to support those who are desperately missing their loved one. Anything that we can do as an individual, a society, or a country, to make that journey of grief a little smoother is a good thing.

Mr. Valeriote said it best. Let's create a practical and compassionate approach to reducing the burden and guesswork of grieving Canadians. Let's be a model to the world for the client services it provides to its citizens and residents.

I strongly support the implementation of Bill C-247 and I look forward to sharing this information with the families I support.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you for your presentation.

We'll now move on to our first round of questioning with Madam Sims.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much.

First of all, I want to thank the three of you for coming to present to the committee.

Marny, I especially want to thank you for sharing your personal experiences and your first-time experiences of what it's like. For many of us who've been through the loss of a loved one, whether it's a parent, a partner, or a child, we know what a difficult time it is to go through grieving.

Just so you know, I've gathered from the last meeting very strong support for this legislation. We're here today because every one of us, no matter which part of the House we sit in, wants to alleviate as much anguish as we can for families who are going through so much. To tell you the truth it took me by surprise that we did not have an integrated, coordinated system when I had a first-hand experience of going through it myself on behalf of my mother when my father passed away. I think this is long overdue.

The one concern I do have is that when I have talked to a number of people they're telling me how long everything takes and how cumbersome it is. Over the last number of years we've had incredible cuts to ESDC where this is housed, that is, over $243 million worth of cuts. My major concern is how this is going to be rolled out. I don't want it to be even more stressful for families.

What kind of transition would you like to see that you think would help to implement this bill? What kind of staffing would you like to see?

[Marny Williams]

Are you asking me that?

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I think I would like to hear the perspective of the three of you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Why don't we start with you, Ms. Williams.

[Marny Williams]

When my husband died I never realized how much paperwork there really was and the amount of death certificates that were needed. The photocopying and all that stuff was extremely surprising to me and overwhelming. I think how we can ease this and make it doable is by asking, what do the front people do at Service Canada? Is there just one form that we can fill out? Maybe this form is going to be five pages because it requires information for all the different departments, but I would rather sit down and fill out one five-page document than have to fill out a similar document over and over again with the same information.

It's a good question. I'll put it out to my colleagues here.

[Barry Thorsteinson]

It would take implementation some study with the ministry to come up with that but I'm hoping the end product would be a quickly identifiable source of assistance and the forms clearly available online. I don't know that this would require extra staffing once the procedures are in place. We do comment unfavourably on the Service Canada cuts that have occurred in the past. But with this particular useful new measure being implemented we hope it is done by consulting the stakeholders.

Also, some of the member organizations—I'm not sure I have the correct name—but the funeral service directors association, I think it's a national one, are very good at getting out the information to executors and to families of where to find information and whatnot. I would hope that this would be streamlined as well, possibly even the forms provided once Service Canada streamlines them to what's necessary for their operational procedures. We're not experts in the field of staffing and resources. We leave that to the government. We just hope that this is a valuable service to Canadians and will actually save time compared to the multiplicity of departments that are now processing, goodness knows, how much conflicting information.

[Janet Gray]

I totally agree.

To give you an idea of the forms involved, when you go to the funeral home after your loved one has died they'll give you up to 18 death certificates to disseminate to the various departments. Sometimes people have to go back and get further copies because often an official copy is needed.

To maybe answer your question, I don't see that it is a staffing issue. If I have to go to 27 departments I'm still talking to 27 people. I would think that Service Canada is the one stop for me, who then notifies those 27 people.

I hope that's the easy solution. It may not be, but I don't see that's an obstacle.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you.

Now we move on to our next questioner, Mr. Armstrong.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank all our witnesses for being here today.

We did have the funeral directors in on Tuesday to hear from them. One of the challenges, of course, was that previously you didn't have the technological capability to have the instant communication that we have today. With multiple departments now using the SIN as a reference point, it makes it obvious for us to move in the direction of Bill C-247 to streamline the administrative issues amongst multiple departments and multiple agencies being informed of this.

We do have the challenge. You were talking, Mr. Thorsteinson, about why Service Canada does this. There are some legal and privacy concerns around the SIN and what departments have opened it. Those are things we have to work out internally, as you said, within the department. However, I do think you'll see—the way this bill has been written and the way there's going to be some amendments later today—that as further departments start using the SIN as a point of reference they'll be able to extend this legislation out for other departments that currently won't be approached by this particular legislation. I think we are moving in the right direction and we appreciate all of your support for this.

With the added ability for Service Canada to be the one point stop for all this information, how important do you think it is for Service Canada to develop a relationship with the funeral directors across the country to make sure this works in a streamlined fashion? Could you talk about any advice you'd have for us as we embark on this relationship with the funeral directors?

[Barry Thorsteinson]

I don't see that as a major challenge at all. I think they would be eager to be working cooperatively with the end product of what the implementation steps look like. Being astute professionals, they are going to be eagerly awaiting the outcome. I don't see any obstacles or delays there. In a very smooth transition they would be cooperating strongly with the one point of contact that ultimately comes of this, if I'm understanding your question correctly. I can't speak for them, obviously, but I can't see a problem.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Okay, great.

Mrs. Williams, you talked about the issues you had with the massive amount of paperwork you had to deal with while you were bereaved with the unfortunate death of your husband, and my condolences by the way. One of the issues that also has been brought to our attention is you're dealing with multiple levels of government—not only the federal government, you're also dealing with the provincial government in many of these aspects. We already have a good relationship with nine of the ten provinces across the country. Saskatchewan will be coming on board very soon—I think it's the last province to come on board—and having direct flow of information from their vital statistics to the federal government.

Do you think the efforts we're going to put in to coordinate that would ease that pain you're going through as you're trying to deal with your grief, if we can develop a smooth transition with the provinces for a good two-way flow of information?

[Marny Williams]

Again, you're going to that office and telling the provincial government the same information that, ultimately, you're telling the federal government. A direct line between provincial and federal would be a huge benefit.

There's also practicalities that come in later on as your grief continues and the timeline passes as well. When I went back to the provincial government for the Ministry of Transport, I had to produce documents five years later still proving that my husband had died, and changing name and changing address and all that stuff. That was five years down the road and I was still having to deal with the legalities and the practicalities of his death. If the provincial government and federal government work together, then maybe the provincial government would already have that information, and therefore lessen my stress when I walked into that office.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

I know that at Service Canada they're soon going to have the technological capability to have some digital imaging of official records, medical records for example, and death certificates. That will increase the ability to have this single point of contact where, if the provincial government wants any information, they'll be able to go through their vital statistics and get those medical documents electronically. Through digital imaging we're going to have that ability. Not only is this legislation going to help support this single point of contact, there's also some technological improvements being made within the department that will also help some of those issues that you face. With the use of improved technology, with the use of technological innovation, we hope to make things even smoother as we move forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

You have about 20 seconds.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

I'll just thank you all for your comments.

We appreciate your support for the legislation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you.

Now we move to Mr. Cuzner, for five minutes.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanking the witnesses, I have the bill's proponent here, Mr. Valeriote, and I'd like to turn my questions over to him.