Evidence of meeting #4 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was officers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kin Choi  Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Compliance, Operations and Program Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Brenda Baxter  Director General, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Sari Sairanen  Director, Health, Safety and Environment, Unifor
Lana Payne  Director, Atlantic Regional, Unifor

4:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Compliance, Operations and Program Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Kin Choi

Yes, and I would add that it's so important to underscore that second step, as you have highlighted, Madam McLeod, that the health and safety committee will have a greater and stronger role to play in ensuring the workplace is safe.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

But the worker, if really uncomfortable, still has that refusal opportunity?

Was that a yes?

4:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Compliance, Operations and Program Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Kin Choi

Yes, it's enshrined through the code, and it's yes throughout the entire refusal process.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

All the appeal mechanisms remain the same.

4:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Compliance, Operations and Program Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Kin Choi

Yes, ma'am.

4:25 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

To me, to be quite frank, if we even reduce that 80% to 40% or 60%, and we have expert health and safety officers able to proactively engage in a workplace and look at prevention and do assessments, that is eminently sensible. All of us believe that prevention is much better than reaction.

4:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Compliance, Operations and Program Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Kin Choi

Yes, ma'am.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you, Ms. McLeod, for cutting that short. It works out very nicely.

We would like to thank both of you for being here today, for taking the time to answer the questions.

The committee will take a short break while the second panel moves into place.

We're adjourned for a short period of time.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

We're resuming the meeting.

First of all, I'll introduce our witnesses. We have Sari Sairanen and Lana Payne from Unifor.

Before we ask you for your presentation, I want to clarify something with members of the committee.

Earlier, there was some confusion at the start regarding the amount of time allowed for questioning. I was wrong, and I'll accept that responsibility. We agreed in the Standing Orders to do five-minute rounds when we have two one-hour panels. The reason for this, I believe, is that if we have more than one witness—often there are two witnesses in a one-hour panel—it will allow, because there would be two 10-minute presentations, more members time to ask questions, so we move to the five-minute rounds. That, just to clarify, is our future order.

Because we have one witness today, it's been suggested—and I'll seek unanimous consent—that we move to seven-minute rounds in the first round. We have one witness, and we have time to do that.

Do I see any opposition to this?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Chair, I have a point of clarification. We do only have one witness in this panel, and I know in the next we have a number. At the end of this meeting, the last 15 minutes or so, are we also dealing with a motion that's been tabled? That's just so we can think about our timeframe in terms of seven versus five.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

I'm not planning to move it today.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Okay.

We're also on 48 hours' notice from Mr. Cuzner.

Mr. Cuzner, do you intend to move your motion at the end of this meeting today? We perhaps will have time because we have a single witness.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

I think because of something that's come up it's precluded now, so we'll do that at the next meeting.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

So you're not doing it today. Thank you.

That being said, we are going to have the first rounds at seven minutes when we get to that point.

Please proceed with your presentation.

4:35 p.m.

Sari Sairanen Director, Health, Safety and Environment, Unifor

Good afternoon, everyone.

Unifor is the largest private sector union, with 300,000 members, with over 80,000 women and men working in the federal sector, which includes rail, transportation, airlines, and communications, just to name a few. On behalf of our members, we are concerned that Bill C-4 is not consistent with enhancing workplace protections and will roll the dice with the health and safety of our federal workers.

At the outset, it is worth noting that none of these changes were the product of collaboration or even consultation. The changes proposed in Bill C-4 alter health and safety protections that have only recently been put into place in the year 2000. That is a relatively short amount of time in the life of a piece of legislation. The Canada Labour Code changes of 2000 were reached after extensive consultation with labour, employers, and government, and were themselves a microcosm of what can be achieved through a tripartite system of collaboration.

Words do matter. They certainly matter when they're the words that make up our laws and legislation, and in particular with the laws and legislation that protect workers and public safety.

When we look at the definition of danger, the proposal is a narrower interpretation of what is considered to be workplace danger. Making changes to the wording of a law is to change its original meaning. Gone is the recognition that the outcome of exposure to hazard might not occur immediately. Gone is the explicit language that recognizes that a potential threat to a worker's reproductive system is worth protecting. That threat of exposure to mutagens is a very real threat.

On the right to refuse, as we look at how the right of refusal happens in workplaces, the government maintains that 80% of all work refusals are not justified and are frivolous. What is that number based on? We don't know what the number is based on. Far from progressing frivolous complaints to HRSDC, we are of the opinion that workers are reluctant to invoke their right to refuse even in the face of bona fide dangerous work. Therefore, instead of watering down safety rights around unsafe work, we should be enhancing them, ensuring that workers feel safe from reprisal by reporting unsafe work. In addition, we should be enhancing enforcement and inspection, not rolling back the clock on hard-fought health and safety gains.

When we look at the work refusal investigation, the employer will prepare a written report—this is something new. The workplace committee will prepare a report—this is something new. The employer may provide further information and request reconsideration—again, something new. The employer shall make a decision—something new. If the employer disagrees, it will notify the worker in writing—something new. If the worker continues refusal, the employer will notify the minister and provide a report—something new. The minister will decide whether to continue.

The new emphasis on the immediacy of the danger to the worker is lost in the new prolonged procedure for addressing that danger. Formerly, the legislative process lent itself to taking minutes or hours to determine if the safety officer was required. However, the new proposal, with an emphasis on written reports, would appear to take hours or days, especially in the case of a 24/7 operation, such as the railways or even airlines.

We're quite concerned with the potential of the minister's refusal to investigate work refusals. We're concerned not only by the paper obstacle that seems to be in the new proposal, but also the vulnerability to discipline. To classify as trivial, vexatious, or in bad faith does not certainly bring forward confidence in workers to bring their issues forward. Also, there is no statutory right to appeal from the minister's decision. In addition, the internal responsibility system points out that everyone is concerned with health and safety. Certainly the new proposals are not in that direction. Health and safety officers are neutral and trained. How is a minister going to fulfill that position?

Healthy and safe working conditions are the right of every worker, and a scheme that strips those rights away and puts workers in harm's way is, in a word, a deadly combination.

When we look at some of our workplaces, for example, at CP Rail, despite ever-increasing pressures to increase production and perform new processes, in 2013 to date our membership of 2000 workers under federal jurisdiction progressed two work refusals under section 128, both resulting in directions under paragraph 145(2)(a) for the employer to stop the dangerous activity—only two work refusals in such a large body. We would therefore argue that any attempt to water down the language in such important legislation is unacceptable. Laws and regulations are only as strong as the education and enforcement that go with them and how those laws and regulations are practised in a workplace and enforced by those charged with the protection of our well-being as workers.

We cannot rely totally on employers to make our workplaces safe, because employers have, by their existence, a goal that competes with safety and is to make a profit. We should accept that as a given and build from there. This is also why we need vigilant and proactive government involvement. This does not happen by watering down rights and, in essence, the legislative authority held by those charged with enforcing our safety.

Since 2000, while lost time to injuries in Canada has been steadily declining, fatalities have remained fairly constant, with over 900 deaths each year. It must be noted that the current legislation, with its superior protections for workers, has failed to reduce these fatalities. This begs the question of why we are not instead looking for ways to enhance worker occupational health and safety, rather than eroding their workplace safety rights. We therefore oppose the changes to the health and safety provisions contained in Bill C-4.

That concludes my report.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you.

Are you going to be making any comments, Madam Payne?

4:40 p.m.

Lana Payne Director, Atlantic Regional, Unifor

I can respond now or we can respond to questions that....

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

So you don't have a....

4:40 p.m.

Director, Atlantic Regional, Unifor

Lana Payne

No, but I would add to one of the points that Sari mentioned, and also to the last witnesses you had, around hazards in the workplace.

I'm from Atlantic Canada, and we have a lot of people working in dangerous work in that part of the country, as we do in many of our provinces. What often happens with a work refusal is that it is really a last resort by the worker. It is because they have made, perhaps, many attempts to already solve these hazard problems in their workplace, through their workplace committee, their occupational health and safety committee, or through other procedures.

To say that we're going to resolve all of these problems around hazards simply because the workplace parties are going to work better together I would suggest is not practically what happens in a lot of workplaces.

Secondly, the previous witnesses talked about the fact that we have 80 inspectors. We have over one million workers in federally regulated workplaces, I think, and 80 inspectors is not a big contingent of workplace safety inspectors to cover that number. As you can imagine, these workers are in thousands of workplaces across the country. Even to do one workplace visit by these inspectors would take many years to complete.

The fact that we have workers who would come forward with problems is incredibly important, I think, and we should be encouraging that and not discouraging it with this kind of legislative change.

Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you.

Thank you for your presentations.

We'll now go to our first round of questions. Seven minutes to Mr. Cuzner.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

I have to leave right now. Can I yield my time to the NDP, please?

Do we need unanimous consent? I think I can do that.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

I think we would need consent to do that.

Is there unanimous consent to allow that?

The answer is no, I don't see it.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Come on, where's all that friendliness gone?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Okay, then. On to Madam Sims.