Human Resources Committee on March 24th, 2015

[Peter Costello]

As well, I think social organizations need to take a better business perspective when they go into these programs. They have to do a proper business plan, for lack of a better word. If they were able to do that, then they could put measurements that were attainable, and knowing what money they have so they can be successful. Sometimes it takes running a pilot project for quite some time before you can go forward to actually doing it.

Again, in a lot of the things we try to achieve, we only see success or failure over such a great length of time, so those measurements are very difficult to put onto a piece of paper.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you.

Madame Groguhé.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I also want to thank our witnesses for their attendance.

My initial question is for Ms. Gagnon.

Your organization has taken an interest in social impact bonds.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

We'll just hold on a minute while she gets her ear pierce...her earpiece in.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Ear pierced?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Is that what I said?

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

I was saying that your organization has taken an interest in SIBs. I would like to know whether you anticipate any negative effects from SIBs being used to fund social programs or public services.

[Carole Gagnon]

It's hard to say because that approach is new to Canada. I can only talk about the programs we are investing in.

We are currently investing in social enterprises, and the effects are very positive. More people are participating in the workforce, and profits are growing every year. That's been our experience so far. Like you, we are starting to explore avenues with other governments, either at the provincial or federal level.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Okay.

Do you have any recommendations, even though this was just launched? It's still very rudimentary, so to speak. Could you recommend any specific ways to resolve transparency or accountability issues?

[Carole Gagnon]

We talked a bit about the partnerships in place. We need to really bring together organizations that provide those services, the various levels of government that will make investments, as well as agencies involved in the sector, such as United Way Ottawa. We must develop the mechanism. The processes and communication must be extremely strong. We have to openly discuss risks and give ourselves a chance to remedy the situation.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Very well.

Mr. Crawford, I would like to hear your opinion on tools for measuring target achievement. How do you think measurement tools could be developed? Beyond the consistency of those tools you mentioned, would it be possible to plan for the tools and how?

[Bill Crawford]

First off, I don't like measuring. I think as Peter has already said, it's a long-term process. You often don't see the positive benefits or impact over the short term. So first, it needs to be a long-term process, but measurement of outcomes is an important part moving forward for organizations and their funders or their supporters, so it's something that needs to get done.

At Eden Community Food Bank we're trying to develop a very simple process where we're trying to assess on a quantitative and a qualitative level if a participant in one of our programs is better off. We call it our BOI, better-off index. Hopefully at the end of this process we'll have, across our programs, a unified or a universal understanding that if we say something has a BOI rating of 96, it's an effective program, that 96% of the participants...or that the evaluation of the program overall is that they're better off. A lower rating, a 46 or whatever, would indicate that some change needs to be done.

That goes back to my original point that there are so many outcome measurements out there, and nothing that connects or can speak to a common measurement across organizations. The United Way is having this problem with their funded agencies. We are a United Way of Peel funded agency, and I know that we are, as a United Way-funded agency, struggling to be able to measure in a way that's compatible or comparable to other United Way-funded agencies so that they, in turn, can say to their supporters and their donors, “This is the collective impact that our funded agencies are having in the community.”

I'm sorry I can't give you an answer on that, other than to say that more work needs to be done on that, and it needs to happen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you very much.

Our last questioner is Mr. Boughen.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I have just a couple of questions for the panel, but first I have an observation. We're talking about fundraising and how we get money to run these projects. Last week, in our constituency week, I had calls every day requesting money. I had six calls on Thursday: cancer research, United Appeal, hospital, minor hockey, MS program, Red Cross. I mean, there's not enough money to go around. One gentleman spoke on that a little earlier.

I guess the question that certainly fundraisers have to ask themselves is, “Why would I get money for this project? Why would people give me money?” Because that's what we're asking people to do: buy into a project. Whether they're the food bank or whether they're the United Way, they're asking people to give money so that they can do the program. What I'm saying is that we're now at a stage of life, I think, or a stage of development as a nation, where people are asking, “Why would I give you money?”

There's another thing that sticks in people's throats, yours truly included. I cut a cheque in January for cancer, and last week there was another request for a cancer donation. That doesn't win friends and influence people. It's antagonistic is what it is. You're saying to yourself, “I donated because I thought it was the thing to do. Obviously they don't care much about recording my donations, because they're asking me for more money again.”

What's your position on this, or what do you think of it? How can you change it around so that I feel good about giving? I used to feel good about giving. Now it's more of a pain.

[Peter Costello]

One thing I think your point speaks to is why we need social financing, quite frankly. Everybody is asked from every direction for more and more money.

We do try to create measurable results. We do try, and I know every agency tries, to communicate as much as possible the results that are being demonstrated for your donation dollar. But our issues are at such a size now that just the small donation.... Well, not the “small” donation; I don't mean to belittle donations. But the amount of donations we can get just from cold-calling, and getting our sponsors to do it, is not enough to deal with these issues. We either have to call you 100 times or we find another avenue to get enough revenue to deal with these issues.

I think that's what we're sitting here trying to discover.

[Bill Crawford]

I think what Peter and you are both talking about is donor fatigue. That is a real problem for charities. The money is not coming in, you ask more, and the money is still not coming in. That is one of the reasons we need to look at different ways to generate income for charities and non-profits in Canada.

Your other question was about what you say to donors to either encourage them to donate or to give them that good feeling after they donate. I think the answer to that is what I mentioned before: a social return on investment, an SROI. It's about being able to articulate and to tell the story of how your donation has changed the lives of people who have come to our organization for help, even getting down to telling the story of one person: “Susan and her children went home today with food for a week. She can make healthy meals for herself and for her kids. Your donation has made that possible.”

So sharing the story, or giving more examples of that social return, I think will help combat donor fatigue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you very much.

I'll end the questioning there. We're very close to the end.

You have a few seconds left, Mr. Boughen, but I'm going to cut you off.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

That's fine, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

It's not always easy to pick up and be here in Ottawa to witness as you have done today. It is my position to thank you for taking that time out of your lives.

It's always important for us as a committee, as we study subject matter, to hear from the grassroots people, the people on the ground. We've been hearing from organizations on the demand side who are looking at the future of social finance for their operations—you fit into that category—and we're hearing from people on the supply side who have said, so far, that there are not enough organizations like yours who are ready to take up the mantle, so to speak.

So we appreciate hearing from you today and hearing your comments. Thank you so much for being here.

We will take a break and then go into committee business.

[Proceedings continue in camera]