Human Resources Committee on April 23rd, 2015

[Sharon Mayne Devine]

As to duplication, in Peel the social needs are so great that you could have duplication of service and it wouldn't be duplicating services. It's a huge region.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

It's a matter of capacity more than duplication.

[Sharon Mayne Devine]

It's a matter of capacity, and I think that because there's so much collaborative work, there's really the development of that social safety net. We work together to ensure we're able to provide services. There are more services that we really need to be providing at this point in time, but there's a lot of collaboration among all the organizations to ensure that people are working effectively with various communities in the region.

Your second question was about the leaseholders. Some are large organizations, with very secure funding; some of them are very small organizations, with insecure funding. We have a real mix in the building. I've got kind of the bedrock tenants, and I know they're going to be able to make their rent and will make it for quite some time, and then we have some smaller organizations. I think what makes us different from a regular landlord is that we work together to flex around meeting people's needs. I did have one organization that lost funding for its rent.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Right.

[Sharon Mayne Devine]

My parking lot money is really what subsidized their rent so that they could stay in the building, because they were a really important program.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I like your approach as far as having a business model to your facility goes. Of course, when a provincial government sets up, they don't do that, so there's a direct cost. You're recovering some of your costs. I think that's a good model and preferred as far as providing those services goes.

Madam Kenny, you said that with the economic development funds there was a challenge for the francophone community in that the same type of product was not fitting their needs.

Could you elaborate on that a little bit? I see economic development. I'm a numbers, accountant-type of guy. As far as business goes, to me it supersedes any language. I want to get an idea of what you're talking about.

[Marie-France Kenny]

I'm a business owner myself.

If I can give an example, and I'm not sure it's an example that's going on right now, but if a program is offered to 500 businesses in the Regina area where I live, in English, and it's the same thing for the francophones, I can tell you there aren't 500 francophone business owners. If it's not offered because there aren't 500 of us, then it's completely different.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Okay.

[Marie-France Kenny]

The one-size fits all issue is what the CALDECH case was about, and the court's judgment talked about part IV of the Official Languages Act, which is about service to the public and making sure that the programs are adapted. I'm actually wondering why this hasn't been done before because the CALDECH ruling said that for any program the government chooses, it should consult and measure the impact and the specificities of the community.

I don't understand why it hasn't been done before in terms of social financing. I'm not saying that we're not in agreement. I'm just saying let's talk about it first and see how it fits and what model would fit within our communities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

That ends round one.

We'll begin round two with Madam Groguhé.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Kenny, you identified a number of issues affecting francophone communities. They seem to have very unique challenges. I'd like to know where, specifically, you would advocate the use of social finance, in order to meet some of those challenges.

[Marie-France Kenny]

It would depend on each community's specific needs. Even at the broader community level, I couldn't say whether social finance should be applied in the cultural arena or somewhere else, given how different each community is. Obviously, some parts of Ontario and New Brunswick have a critical mass, but other communities would probably lack the required 500 program participants and the private investors needed to implement the program. But, as Diane mentioned, if the government were willing to make some sort of investment, such as a tax credit for private investors willing to work with French-speaking communities, we could examine a number of considerations. I'm not claiming to have the solution. Communities and the government need to work together to find the solution.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Very well.

My second question pertains to the parameters that should govern social finance and its use.

Do you have any to suggest, and if so, what are they?

[Marie-France Kenny]

I just have a word of caution when it comes to funding that is transferred to a private investor to lead a large-scale project. Money is already transferred to provinces for education, health and another program whose name I can't remember right now. In fact, we appeared on the topic.

These are federal labour market agreements whereby the employer needs to do certain things. Will he or she take into account the fact that there are francophones in their community? Will employers offer specific services?

Then there is the issue of transfers. Even if there are language provisions attached to provincial transfer payments, the commissioner mentioned that certain education ministries had stated that when they receive a cheque for immersion or French-language education, they can use it elsewhere. They use it for priority needs as they see them, and these are not necessarily French-language schooling or immersion.

You have to make sure that you are not dealing with a majority organization. Linguistic duality is not the same thing as institutional bilingualism; in overall bilingualism, French gets lost. Linguistic duality means the coexistence of two peoples, some being unilingual French-speakers, others being unilingual English-speakers, and there are bilingual people in the middle of all that, people who understand the needs and reality of the other group.

If organizations from the majority-language group offer services, there is quite a likelihood, particularly in Saskatchewan, that I will in the end be offered services in English, and that the active offer of French services will also be lost. My particular needs will most probably not be met.

Recently there was a project managed by a Quebec organization. A project intended for our communities was granted to a Quebec organization that did not know us at all in the context of the Roadmap for Canada's Official Languages 2013-2018. My reality is totally different from that of a Quebec francophone. So we had to deal with someone who did not know us and in the end could not execute the project as they had intended to. Finally, the project was passed along in the form of contracts to organizations in our community. The original organization was reduced to simply handing out money for contracts. These results are for from positive.

Things have to be done for and by communities and we have organizations that do an enormous amount of work. I think that you should first and foremost work with those organizations who have the necessary expertise and are able to do the work.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Boughen, you have five minutes, sir. It's your turn.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Let me welcome our panel. Thanks for coming and sharing the afternoon with us.

Marie, can you share with us how your overall operation works? Do you recruit clients? Do you take clients who come through the door? Is there a charge for the clients? Is there direction? Is it based on a curriculum? Is some mechanism utilized for instructional purposes? Can you give us a little on that?

[Marie-France Kenny]

My organization is a spokes-organization for all francophones who live outside Quebec, so it's a federation. Our membership is the spokes-organization in each province and territory and a national organization for culture, health, youth, elders, women's groups, etc., as well, so we have national organizations. We have provincial organizations as well. In each province there is usually a youth group, a cultural group. We're very organized French communities.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Is that base growing? Are there more people—

[Marie-France Kenny]

There are more people, and so proportionately we are less, but that's an entirely other debate on immigration—

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Is that a sob story?

[Marie-France Kenny]

Yes, it might take more than five minutes, so I won't start. We are are growing in numbers, absolutely, but if you look at it in proportion to the number of anglophones, as a percentage we're not growing because of immigration and the lack of francophone immigration.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Right.

[Marie-France Kenny]

Is there a cost? Some of our organizations charge membership costs. Of course, if there's a show, a cultural activity, we pay like everybody else, so there is some kind of financing. But whereas you might get 200 people to attend an English show or concert, you might get 50 to attend a French concert. It doesn't mean it's not as interesting or as good; it just means there are fewer people.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you.

Sharon, can you tell us your plans to increase your economic base, your input? We've heard about the challenge of putting together the building and programming and staffing, and you've obviously tapped into some of the community in being available for working with people. Can you expand on that a little for us, tell us what you're doing, what the future holds and how you're going to get there?