Evidence of meeting #8 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was asets.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director, Strategic Policy and Planning Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
When you take all of the funding provided for K-to-12 education and you compare it to all of the funding for K-to-12 education in the provinces, it compares at least as favourably as the money going in per student. The problem is the per capita amount doesn't tell you the whole story and it's about the opportunities that the students need.
There are all sorts of factors in terms of remoteness. What the provincial funding formula looks at, the majority of their children are in large urban areas. The majority of first nations students are in remote rural areas. We know it costs a lot less per student to fund in an urban area than it does in a rural area.
Director, Strategic Policy and Planning Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Just the per capita figure does not explain what's going on, but when you just take the per capita figure, we compare at least favourably per student.
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
It's a complex issue obviously. Can each of you boil it down to one key barrier? What is the main barrier that's standing between first nations and success in skills development?
Director General, Aboriginal Affairs Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
From our perspective, it's essential skills.
NDP
The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims
Thank you very much. The time is up.
We go over to Madame Groguhé this time for sure.
NDP
Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My thanks to the witnesses for being here.
First of all, I would like to make a short comment. As I familiarized myself with the briefing book, it became very clear to me that young Aboriginal people are caught in an exclusion cycle. It is a downward spiral, and the economic deficit and poverty only make the situation worse. The exclusion cycle in terms of entry into the workforce has many facets. Studies have been done on the issue. We know for a fact that, when groups of people are struggling, one of the solutions is to enable them to start school at a young age. The more we educate and guide children early on, when they are 2 or 3, the better the chances this cycle will be broken.
I wanted to make that comment because I felt it was important and essential. Right now, instead of taking a preventive approach, we are taking a curative approach. But we know that a curative approach has its limits.
Are skills development and training programs regulated so that we can assess whether the objectives have been achieved? You gave us some numbers. We have some results. But how many people benefited from those types of programs?
Director General, Aboriginal Affairs Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
First, I think your first question was regarding whether we are doing an evaluation of the results.
Director General, Aboriginal Affairs Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
We've done evaluations in the past that have focused on results of the previous program on AHRDS and ASEP. We have some strong results coming out of that. We are currently undergoing an evaluation right now that is focusing a bit more on the partnership aspect of the programming but will cover off results. It is definitely a part of what we do. Program evaluation is a key component to all our programming. We're in the field right now collecting the information.
With respect to the actual numbers, I really wish I could—
NDP
Director General, Aboriginal Affairs Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Yes, no problem.
NDP
Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC
Very well. It would be interesting to see how many people were actually affected and how many people successfully entered the workforce as a result.
I am also wondering if the plan was for those young people to graduate. If, after going through this skills development training, young people work for a while and then want to quit their jobs for one reason or another, how will they be able to find another job if they do not graduate?
Director General, Aboriginal Affairs Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
High school equivalency is something that our organizations do a lot of. It's quite often a prerequisite for many types of jobs. For example, for many of the mining jobs you need to have your high school diploma. As they come through our doors, that is quite often identified as one of the key areas to pursue.
With respect to post-secondary, it is an eligible expense for within two years. A lot of clients are referred to colleges particularly, or the course work is through colleges. Quite often it's certification as opposed to having a diploma, certification for a specific job, especially the skilled trades and apprenticeship-type jobs.
NDP
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the departments for being here.
I was the chair of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development for a few years, and Jean was on the committee. We put together what I considered to be a great report on post-secondary education for aboriginal students. I think it was called “No Higher Priority”. I think the department is doing a great job in implementing some of the recommendations. It's good to see that when you do these reports, people do read them and move on them. Thank you for that.
I want to get back to the question that was answered in terms of funding for education for aboriginal students. You said in the report that you're working to reform the structure for funding, and you're looking at the need and the program structure to determine the cost.
It's not a matter of there not being funding, it's a matter of first having to find out how much you need.
Is that a correct statement, Mr. Rainer?
Director, Strategic Policy and Planning Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Yes. In fact, we've heard it talked about in terms of whether we want to fund an education system based on a 20th century education model, or whether there is a new approach that better meets the needs of first nations students, and what it would take to fund that. We're very much in that consultation phase to determine what is needed and what first nations want. We've heard many things throughout the process so far, and those consultations continue.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
I think what you said is important, the consultations. The department has recently done coast-to-coast engagements with aboriginal stakeholders. You're putting together the need and the program structure so that you can eventually come up with a budget to be able to implement something that will be properly funded and structured. Is that correct?
Director, Strategic Policy and Planning Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Certainly. The discussions started way back in 1972, with the release of “Indian Control of Indian Education”. It built on the good work of the Senate committee and the report; it's built on recommendations from the Auditor General. Back in December 2012 there was an initial discussion guide released to all first nations. That then led to what we call the blueprint, back in July, which took into account many of the things we'd been hearing up to that time. Those discussions continued and resulted in the release of the draft legislative proposal in October. It is just that: it's a proposal. Based on what we'd heard to date, it was what we thought could be a draft of legislation moving forward.
Those discussions continue. We are very keen and we continue to listen to first nations about what they'd like and what they don't like in that proposal. We want to hear about their recommended changes. We've certainly heard questions around oversight, and we're listening. There have been a few suggestions of other ways of addressing reviews of schools and outcomes, and we'll continue to take those into account.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
I want to follow what Mr. Cuzner said about the outcomes as far as K to 12 is concerned. In our study we identified that if an aboriginal person graduated, the number that went on to post-secondary education is the same as in the non-aboriginal population. It was to get them to grade 12. One of the recommendations we talked about was trying to engage, especially young male aboriginals, at an earlier stage in the K to 12 system, maybe grade 9, or grade 10, or whatever, because you need to bring up the interest. Has there been any movement on that?
There are some figures here on unemployment: Métis, 10.4%; first nations, 18.3%; and Inuit 19.6%, and that's the highest. It's misleading in a way because the Inuit are the remotest group. They might not necessarily be close to a resource development, so the opportunities.... We found during the study that a lot of aboriginal people did not want to move away from their traditional community.
As far as those challenges are concerned, how do you see improving employment? Also, I'm interested in whether or not you're going to have to look at maybe helping to move people to the jobs. Is that being reviewed?
Director General, Aboriginal Affairs Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Yes, by the ASETS. You're talking about people who should be attached to the labour force, and ASETS for the most part is focused on that. I can give you the counts—I've finally found them—of how many people have found jobs, of how many people have returned to school, but the number of people who have improved their employability so they're ready to take advantage of jobs when they should, or when they arrive—