Human Resources Committee on May 7th, 2018

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much to all.

To Sarah Watts-Rynard, in your presentation you talked about building strong careers for students who come for training to the employer. You suggested four points, including employer engagement, evaluation objectives, and other things. I've been an entrepreneur in the legal profession in Brampton city, and I've come across many other entrepreneurs—accountants, truck workshops, car workshops, machinists, and other things. They're small businesses, but those small businesses also want to give students training when they are with them.

When they need someone to come and give them training, they need the infrastructure. They need the funds to spend. The employer either has to spend time on the student or he has to employ someone to give the training. What do you suggest to the committee? What type of program should we have for collaboration between government and the employers in terms of help? Should it come through those students or should it come directly to them? What is your suggestion?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

I go back to thinking about the way apprenticeship works in some European countries, as an example. Linkage between employers and the education system is fundamental. The integration goes to the lower levels of education all the way through to apprenticeship, and through to university and other credentials. There is a real understanding that education is the way that people become integrated into the labour market. It's not education just for the sake of education, but education for the sake of employment. As a result, I think employers start to develop a culture where it's not only their right but their responsibility to be engaged in talking about what education and skills are required.

I think we see a few different things. In the polytechnics, as an example, we see these program advisory committees made up of employers who are saying, “This is what we need, this is what you're doing really well, and these are the weaknesses.” They're really providing opportunities to have employers integrated into those education systems.

Tim mentioned this idea of consortia, which works for small employers. Small employers that don't have the resources of their own might be able to get together through an association or with a union.

The unions have a number of joint apprenticeship training committees. Those become places where smaller employers can access workers right from the beginning of their apprenticeship all the way through in order to be able to connect with employment, and in many cases they can take some of the administrative burden off those smaller employers.

In Canada, 85% of all employers are small employers, so they don't have the resources. It becomes a matter of trying to understand.... We're not Germany. The economic model isn't the same and the businesses aren't the same, but I think there are ways to adapt some of that thinking into ways that work in Canada.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Nobina was telling us earlier that 80% comes from on-the-job training and 20% from the schools and universities. That on-the-job training means the employer has to do it all himself. Do you think the employer needs more funds, more sources, or more infrastructure? What types of things would you suggest to the committee to give them help?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

I guess it just goes back to the one in five skilled trades employers engaged with apprenticeships. Those employers would tell you that it's an absolute no-brainer. It's the best thing for their business. It's giving them the future leaders. It's giving them their ability to compete. It's contributing to their ability to develop people with the skills and knowledge they need to be productive within their business.

It's that four out of five who aren't engaged that I'm much more worried about. I think that in some cases they think that an apprentice, particularly in those first couple of years, is not as productive as they are throughout the later stages of their apprenticeship, so it's costing them the time and the money to invest in the training. That's where we start to think about how government can incent those employers to participate.

Number one, governments maybe can provide some wage subsidies to the smallest employers that are facing those resource constraints. Number two, governments can be the ones that are hiring and training apprentices instead of poaching them from the small companies that are doing the training. Also, they can find ways to support a business imperative for apprenticeship training, and this is where you start to get into infrastructure and procurement contracts that include provisions for apprenticeship hiring and training. This is important, because employers who may think it's too much time and too much money to hire and train an apprentice will start to think that the business imperative to getting that job is to be actively involved with training.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

MP Falk, please.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you all for being here today.

I find this conversation really interesting because my riding, Battlefords—Lloydminster, is a rural riding. When I graduated from high school, and even before I graduated from high school, sure, the conversation was, “Where are you going to attend—U of S or U of A?”, but it was also actually, “Are you going to go to SIAST or SAIT or NAIT?”

Lloydminster has been referred to as a little Fort McMurray in Canada. We have a lot of oil and gas there. I see a lot of parents encouraging their kids to take trades because of the opportunities they have. Even my family members encourage others to get a trade before they get a degree because they'll always have something to do. That's common verbiage.

I have a couple of questions. Regionally, my riding is in rural Canada, so in order to even attend post-secondary education, other than the college we have in Lloydminster, it's a three-hour drive either way. I'm wondering whether we have any information or statistics by region with regard to whether students are leaning more towards the trades in rural or urban, and that type of thing.

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

Definitely, we see that in more rural environments, in general, if people have been farmers or have worked near mines, or have worked near forestry, they see opportunity to stay in their communities and to work in the skilled trades. I think there's still a push that for bigger and better you should go to university, but we definitely see that rural students certainly have more exposure and perhaps are given greater opportunities to stay home and work in the trades. It then just becomes a challenge about the technical training. You do actually see schools like Saskatchewan Polytechnic doing fantastic work around distance learning and trying to minimize the time that someone has to be away from home to go to the technical training school.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

That was another thing I was going to mention. When I went to high school, we actually had shop class. You could do welding. You could do construction. You could do electrical. You could even do clothing, textile, and fashion, all of those hands-on things. Students switched schools. If someone was in the Catholic school and they wanted to go to public school because it offered automotive, that's what they did. It's great to see that this is happening in some schools in the country.

I have another question, and I guess it would be for Ms. Collins.

You mentioned—and correct me if I'm wrong—that your schools are located in urban centres.

[Mary Collins]

Yes. As of 2016, they were in Edmonton and Calgary. However, now that we have the outreach, we go out to first nations communities and Métis settlements and bring the program out to them. As well, as part of the program, they build tiny homes as their hands-on project.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

That's awesome. Do you notice a difference with attendance? Do you find that you have more students who are in the outreach program over the number coming into the city to go to school?

[Mary Collins]

Can you clarify?

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

I'm just wondering if you find that you have better attendance by going to where the students live than you have with them driving into Calgary or driving into Edmonton for classes.

[Mary Collins]

Yes, the attendance of course is better because we're right in their community, so then they have their own community members or the departments that we partner up with, so I'm thinking they're a little bit more comfortable closer to home. There are also probably fewer barriers as well since they are in their own home community, when you look at child care, transportation, and all of those things.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

That's one thing that I noticed too, because I live in Lloydminster, and we're right on the border; we have to drive places. Even just the cost-of-living increases when you have to drive places and there's the carbon tax. I'm just wondering if that is a barrier, or if you've noticed since the carbon tax was implemented in Alberta whether that is affecting students' ability to get to school.

[Mary Collins]

Yes, it is. Transportation was already an issue as well, but now it's just compounded in regard to the tax.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Okay. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

You have about 30 seconds.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

I have a quick question. We've heard the number 26 in terms of the age of those entering apprenticeship programs. Does anybody know or have statistics on how many of those people have a previous degree from university?

[Nobina Robinson]

You know what? The lack of data in this G7 country really drives me crazy, so I'm going to give you proxy answers.

In the world of the polytechnics, some 25% of our post-secondary students are reporting prior post-secondary experience. Some 15% are reporting prior university degrees, but in the trades piece, I don't have it as a whole. I can't speak for the whole country, but you'd have to figure that they've done something else before they decided to sign up and become an apprentice at the age of 26.

The bigger problem, though, is also why we are not talking about how long this will take to complete. If you start at 26 and there are four levels of apprenticeship, you're going to be 30 or 32 before you get your ticket, and some of this is pretty labour-intensive work. That's the completion issue that was raised earlier.

We really need better data. Statistics Canada gives you an annual snapshot of how many apprentices are registered. That doesn't mean anything, because you could have registered but not be pursuing your trade. It only surveys apprentices every seven or 10 years. We need better real-time data about the different pathways.

Your question is right. I wish I could answer you. We can give you some proxy answers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

MP Fortier, please.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you all for joining us today.

I am pleased that we are talking about hard data, because our government makes decisions based on hard data. The return of the long-form census is one example of the importance of having precise data in order to move forward.

I would like to go back to women's participation. We talked about it briefly earlier. In the last budget, the one for 2018, the federal government announced measures to encourage under-represented groups, such as women, to choose apprenticeship training in a specialized trade.

Would providing subsidies for women who choose a male-dominated program encourage women to participate in programs of that kind? Are there other measures that you were not able to tell us about that would encourage young women to become interested in apprenticeship programs?

Let me ask Ms. Watts-Rynard to start.

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

When it comes to some of the things announced in the budget, and specifically the incentive grants for women who are under-represented, it only works if they have fewer than 15% women in that trade in terms of being eligible. When we think about the average age of a newly registered apprentice being in the mid-twenties, women come to apprenticeship even later, as a general rule. They tend to be single mothers who have decided that the skilled trades are something they want to pursue because they want to be able to make a living for their children and for themselves.

In that particular case, when you think about having to take care of child care issues and all of the responsibilities that come with parenthood, absolutely any kind of financial support is helpful. In general, that's an issue for all apprentices in a way that it really isn't for a number of other post-secondary students. They're no longer supported by their family. They have mortgages, cars, and children. They have those responsibilities.

On some of the other announcements and some of the other support for women in trades, I think there is so much work being done across the country by terrific groups that are really engaged with role modelling, mentoring, and providing opportunity. We see the unions heavily involved with under-represented groups in general and certainly in trying to bring women into the trades.

I think any kind of funding and support that helps them do that work on a more consistent basis is a good thing. They're not going to be able to run a program that becomes self-sufficient. They need employers. They need unions. They need the government to be able to support that work on an ongoing basis in order to sustain role models, mentors, and supports that are the reality when really in most trades we're talking about the 3% or 4% who are women.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

My time is quickly running out, but there is one area I would like us to focus on, new Canadians. We did not hear a lot about them in your presentations.

Can you give us an idea about how new Canadians participate in apprenticeship programs? If possible, focus on young people. How are we going to reach those new Canadians?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

New Canadians are as under-represented as women are. I mean, women are 50% of the population and we're talking 3% or 4%. Newcomers are a smaller proportion of the Canadian labour market, but still we're talking about 3% or 4%. They're drastically under-represented in the trades.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Ms. Robinson, do you want to add anything?