Human Resources Committee on Oct. 18th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to today's meeting on Bill C-81, an act to ensure a barrier-free Canada. The objective of today's meeting is to continue the committee's thorough review of the bill.

I have a fairly substantive preamble here, so please bear with me.

I would like to take a moment to remind both those participating in the proceedings, as well as those observing the proceedings of the committee in person and on video, that the committee adopted a motion on September 18 that included instructions for the clerk to explore options to allow for full participation of all witnesses and members of the public on this study. As a result, the committee has made arrangements to make all meetings in relation to the study of Bill C-81 as accessible as possible in a variety of ways. This includes providing sign language interpretation and near real-time closed captioning in the room.

Please note that both American sign language and Quebec sign language are being offered to those in our audience. Those who would like to watch the American sign language interpretation should please sit on the benches to my left. If you would like to watch the Quebec sign language interpretation, please sit on the benches to my right. In addition, please note that the first two rows of benches have been reserved for those who wish to avail themselves of these interpretation services.

Screens displaying the near real-time closed captioning have also been set up, with the English text again to my left and the French text to my right. The sign language interpreters in the room are also being video recorded for the eventual broadcast of the meeting on ParlVu via the committee's website.

In light of these arrangements, the committee asks that if you need to leave the room during the meeting, please do not walk in front of the sign language interpreters. Instead, please use the extremities of the room. In addition, we ask that those in the room remain seated as much as possible during the meeting, so that everyone in the audience can clearly see the sign language interpretation.

Finally, if a member of the audience requires assistance at any time, please notify a member of staff or the committee clerk.

I want to just check with the interpreters if my speed and cadence are appropriate. If so, please could they give me a thumbs-up? Fantastic.

I ask that because in the previous meetings we have gone a little fast, whether it's with opening statements or with questions and answers. I'm going to apologize in advance. I will, if given an indication by the interpreters, slow you down. Don't worry about time. We're very conscious that everyone wants to get the message out and that we are limited in time, but I have been a little liberal—no pun intended—on the timing, and have given people a couple more moments to finish their statements and stay at a slower pace.

If I believe we need to slow down, I will indicate it this way.

I want to introduce those who are here with us today, both in person and via video conference.

Appearing as an individual, we have Jutta Treviranus, Professor and Director at the Inclusive Design Research Centre from OCAD University, by video conference, coming to us from France. Welcome.

Also joining us here by video conference, from Barrier-Free Canada, we have Donna Jodhan, Founder and Chair. Welcome.

Appearing here with us today, we have Michael Prince, Professor of Social Policy from the Faculty of Human and Social Development at the University of Victoria. Welcome.

From People First of Canada, we have Kory Earle, President, and Shelley Fletcher, Executive Director. Welcome.

From the Public Service Alliance of Canada, we have Marianne Hladun, Regional Executive Vice-president from the Prairies region, and Seema Lamba, Human Rights Program Officer from the Negotiations and Programs Branch. I thoroughly apologize if I butchered your names.

Each group will receive seven minutes for opening statements. We're going to start with Jutta Treviranus, coming to us from France.

The next seven minutes are all yours.

[Jutta Treviranus, Professor and Director, Inclusive Design Research Centre, OCAD University, As an Individual]

Thank you.

I am the director of something called the Inclusive Design Research Centre, which has the mission of proactively ensuring that emerging technologies are designed inclusively. We focus on inclusive design for our digitally transformed and complexly connected society. We turned 25 this year and are engaged in many collaborative and international projects.

In my statement, I want to focus on the area where we have the most unique expertise, and this is the impact of the domain of digitally transformed, complexly connected societies on people experiencing disabilities. I also take a systems view of the goal of accessibility for people with disabilities in order to address not just the symptoms of exclusion but the underlying systemic causes.

First I should tell you how we define disability within the design domain and within the data domain. From the design perspective, we see disability as a mismatch between the needs of the individual and the environment, product or service offered, not a defining personal trait. From a data perspective, disability is the outlying edge of the starburst that is the normal distribution, sufficiently far from the central cluster for whom most things are designed so that things are not designed for you and you have difficulty with or can't use the current designs.

People with disabilities are the outliers. The primary defining characteristic of disability is difference, difference from the norm, and thinking of that starburst, people experiencing disabilities are more different from each other than people who are clustered around the average. As you move from the centre, the dots are further apart.

This means that people experiencing disabilities are served by systems and processes that are designed for variability and complexity. Any evidence related to persons experiencing disabilities will be dispersed and diffuse. There are no large numbers of homogenous representatives, and therefore, there is no statistical significance. Also of note, “majority rules” does not serve people with disabilities.

How is a digitally connected domain different from other domains that you may hear about in terms of accessibility?

Interoperability is the most difficult and pernicious issue in the digital domain. Once adoption begins, barriers propagate and morph extremely quickly and are almost impossible to contain. Inaccessible conventions lock in and are impossible to reverse—try to get rid of the QWERTY keyboard. Therefore, retrofit, which is possible but expensive in other domains, is almost impossible in the digital domain. Timing is also extremely critical and does not follow a predetermined schedule. There's no benefit in scheduling a five-year review.

People experiencing disabilities are the most vulnerable to threats caused by the digital transformation, but also provide the most compelling benefits for emerging technologies. Technical systems can be designed to provide one-size-fits-one; they can present a different entry point or user experience to each individual.

What are the failures and weaknesses of current legislative frameworks? Technical regulations cannot keep up. They become outdated and then accessibility is seen as an impediment to innovation and progress. Most regulations treat the symptoms and not the cause. We have regulations regarding inaccessible documents rather than the authoring tools that produce them. We focus on the products, not the process.

Accessibility is usually also in a gatekeeping role, which leads to resentment, and not as part of the design from the start, where we should be thinking about accessibility and the digital domain. We focus on accessibility as an obligation, not as a benefit. We should see it as an impetus for innovation, long-term cost reduction and longevity of design. We need to provide the economic modelling to highlight the significant return on investment. We have amassed evidence to this effect.

Also, any available supports, tools, training and expertise provided with respect to supporting the regulations are often fragmented, contradictory, confusing and redundantly produced. The all-too-common checklist approach requires reductionism and increases the barriers for anyone not included or served by the checklist.

We have promoted also, with respect to accessibility and computer access, an integrated not a segregated computer access strategy. Promoting an assistive technology industry as a separate non-integrated technology is not viable. It increases the cost and reduces the interoperability. This has become a barrier to digital equity when it was seen originally as a solution.

The emerging threats and opportunities that we need to pay attention to include our emphasis on evidence-based governance. The form of evidence requires large homogeneous groups. People with disabilities are not homogeneous and will not pass any thresholds with respect to evidence.

Artificial intelligence and decisions based on population data, for example, automated vehicles and outliers, do not take into account people who are outliers, and people with disabilities are outliers. Data-guided decisions perpetuate past exclusion, as they use data of the past. If you've never held an employment position, there's no evidence of your ability to perform within that position and so you will never get chosen for the job.

With respect to privacy, de-identification of people with disabilities does not work. People with disabilities are the easiest to re-identify and the most vulnerable to data abuse and misuse. Block chains and other disintermediated systems create the challenge of who you regulate. There is no service provider that you can ask to create accessible systems. Current project planning, monitoring and evaluation processes impose assumptions in unpredictable variable domains that people with disabilities experience.

There are some silver linings. Open platforms offer an opportunity. They can be a means of aggregating and sharing resources, tools and knowledge, matching unmet personal needs and connecting demands at the edge with producers at the edge. They can diversify demand and supply to reach the edges where people with disabilities are.

I have five recommendations.

The first is that we should support inclusive research and innovation. There's currently a systemic bias against research in this area because there is a lack of statistical significance and there are not enough peers to review the research. We should integrate accessibility into all research support throughout the process, the call for proposal and determining the success criteria, and in the peer review.

Second, we should emphasize systemic processes for long-term change and encourage diversification, not competition, for one winning alternative, participation of informed diverse perspectives in our decision-making processes, and the integration of exclusive design training for all relevant roles.

My third recommendation is that our interventions should be timely and proactive. We should designate and empower a role for vigilant monitoring, and for power to intervene in emerging technology processes or in a watchdog role for emerging technologies and practices. Within this domain, that is the only way we will stop catching up and be able to equitably participate.

Fourth, we need to produce and provide authoring and development tools that produce accessible content programs and services through procurement. You'll save innumerable hours and effort in remediating inaccessible content if you design it accessibly from the start and this is supported in the authoring and development tools.

Finally, I recommend that we establish a community portal that pools resources, tools, research and constructive feedback from the public and from other individuals who are innovating in this domain, thereby reducing fragmentation.

This doesn't need to mean that the government is supporting any one solution, but that it is pooling the resources such that the public and people with expertise, especially individuals experiencing disabilities, can review and support the systems.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Now, for seven minutes, from Barrier-Free Canada, coming to us by video conference from Toronto, Ontario, we have Donna Jodhan, Founder and Chair.

The next seven minutes are all yours.

[Donna Jodhan, Founder and Chair, Barrier-Free Canada]

Good morning. My name is Donna Jodhan, and I'm the President and Chair of Barrier-Free Canada. We are a grassroots, non-partisan organization. We were founded in late 2014, and we were instrumental in kick-starting the campaign for the Canadian government to pass legislation to impact the Canadians with disabilities act for a barrier-free Canada.

At the present time, we are supported by over 25 national organizations across Canada, and we have been endorsed by the cities of Toronto and Halifax. Individual support continues to grow steadily with the present base of about 2000 persons across the country.

Our founding organizations include the CNIB, the MS Society, March of Dimes, Accessible Media Inc. and the Canadian Hearing Society. We continue to advocate for legislation to make Canada a barrier-free country. As part of our initiative, we have developed 14 principles which we believe can help form the foundation of said legislation.

You can find out about our principles by going to www.barrierfreecanada.org. In our appendix A, which we have submitted, we have included the list of the 14 principles, along with a comparison of what we believe has not been included in this proposed legislation. For brevity, I will propose what the legislation does not include in each of our principles.

Barrier-free Canada is grateful for having been given this opportunity to have our voice heard. We believe that when this act is passed, it will go down in history as one of the most important pieces of legislation as it pertains to the rights of Canadians with disabilities, their friends and their families. We look forward to continued collaboration with the Canadian government on this very important piece of legislation.

I will now talk about the comparisons as they pertain to each of the Barrier-Free Canada principles.

On principle one, this principle, in our respectful view, has not been endorsed. There are no meaningful deadlines or time horizons specified by the legislation. Even if a deadline were established in a regulation, there is nothing in the legislation that prescribes a penalty for failing to meet such a deadline.

For principle two, this principle has been partly endorsed. The legislation does appear to cover all persons with disabilities, to address the range of barriers anticipated in this principle, and to apply to the federal government and regulated entities and organizations. However, the legislation does not appear to extend requirements to organizations that receive federal grants, subsidies, loans or other funds. The legislation does not appear to extend requirements to organizations which provide goods and services to the federal government.

For principle three, in principle the legislation is drafted and is not intended to override or displace any existing protections or mechanisms for enforcement that are available to people with disabilities. Given that the regulations have not yet been developed, it is not possible to assess at this time whether the act is stronger or weaker than existing provisions.

For principle four, the act does not really aim for full accessibility or inclusion. It strives to achieve “through the progressive realization...of a Canada without barriers”. Progressive realization does not imply any particular deadline or metre stick against which progress is to be measured.

For the fifth principle, to the extent that regulated entities provide goods and services in this manner, the legislation does require that implementation plans be made to identify and remove barriers. It is not clear that the legislation could drive product development and accessibility requirements, e.g., Shared Services information technology services.

For principle six, there are presently no prescribed timelines, but this is otherwise included in the act.

For principle seven, the legislation does not clearly demonstrate how Canada will take a lead role in implementation. Taking that lead role could begin today. Canada should not wait for the legislation or regulations to be finalized before taking proactive steps towards implementation within its own departments. Canada should be seen as leading the charge.

For principle eight, the act does provide for another complaint resolution process outside of the traditional court venues; however, the act does not appear to include any mandatory enforcement provisions. The accessibility commissioner has broad enforcement powers, but those powers “may” be used, not “shall” be used.

For the ninth principle, the act does provide some sector-by-sector separations, at least in respect of a few designated sectors. It is not clear how input from affected groups and organizations will be gathered or consolidated. There is a suggestion in the act, but not a hard rule, that a majority of the board of directors of the standards-setting body will be people with disabilities, but absolutely no requirement that persons with disabilities will dominate on the technical and advisory committees.

For principle 10, these issues do not appear to be addressed by the legislation at all.

For principle 11, these issues do not appear to be addressed by the legislation at all. Certainly, there is no mention in the legislation of applying a disability lens to policy and legislative development.

For principle 12, these issues do not appear to be addressed by the legislation at all.

For principle 13, this may be happening at a policy level, but there is no direct reflection of it in the federal legislation.

Finally, for principle 14, the degree to which the act is permissive but not mandatory undermines its potential to have real force, effect and teeth.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Now, appearing as an individual, we have Michael Prince, professor of social policy at the faculty of human and social development, University of Victoria.

Welcome, sir. The next seven minutes are all yours.

[Professor Michael Prince, Professor of Social Policy, Faculty of Human and Social Development, University of Victoria, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a pleasure to be here.

Let me just read some opening remarks.

Members of this standing committee will hear from a variety of witnesses on a wide range of issues regarding this bill and the vision of a barrier-free Canada. There is much to applaud in this historic bill, which seeks to advance the principles of full and equal participation of Canadians with disabilities in all areas of society, whatever a person's abilities and disabilities.

There are also areas of concern with this bill. As Donna has just laid out, these include the absence of measurable targets with specific deadlines; the permissive language in the bill in many sections; the extent of exemptions; the lack of a disability lens; the absence of duties on the Government of Canada for promoting accessibility on the 600-plus first nation communities across the country; the status of ASL and LSQ and rights to communication; the complex model of federal bodies involved in enforcement and adjudication; and, the status of the proposed chief accessibility officer as a Governor in Council appointee rather than an officer of Parliament.

I'm happy to talk about any of those later in discussion. My focus this morning is on what Donna has identified as principle number two in the list of principles by Barrier-Free Canada. I wish to focus on the topic of the scope of application of the proposed act, that is, the entities to which the act will be relevant and seek to influence and support in advancing the inclusion and participation for Canadians with disabilities.

The application of the act is set out in clause 7 of the bill. It outlines various types of entities related to the federal public service, the Canadian Forces and other related parts of the federal public administration.

The question I wish to pose to the committee for your consideration is this: Is this the full scope of application that we should have and that we need to have in order to achieve the fundamental purpose of this act?

Canadians, I believe, have higher expectations and larger ambitions in ensuring a barrier-free society. This certainly is apparent from the extensive cross-country consultations on the planned legislation that took place from July 2016 to February 2017.

I wish to recommend that the scope of the bill and its intended barrier-free objectives be extended to non-federally regulated employers and other organizations: to federal contractors, those organizations, whether federally or provincially regulated, that wish to do business with the Government of Canada, whether that's in producing and providing goods and services on behalf of Parliament and the Government of Canada, and those organizations receiving significant grants, loans and subsidies.

I propose that subclause 7(1) be amended by adding a new item, which would state, “Any entity, business or organization with 100 or more employees and in receipt of goods and services contracts valued at $200,000 with the Government of Canada”.

This recommendation recognizes the substantial and strategic role of the Government of Canada as a funder and as a contractor. It is a role well within the constitutional authority of Parliament and a long-standing practice in federal public policy and financial arrangements. It refers to what some might call the federal spending power.

The idea for this proposed amendment is informed not only by the work of Barrier-Free Canada but in practice by the federal contractors program, first established in 1986 to advance the implementation of the Employment Equity Act. As an established platform, the federal contractors program has real potential to encourage positive changes in human resources policies and in raising awareness and shifting attitudes, thus empowering persons with disabilities.

The federal contractors program could be updated to add, alongside its long-standing goal of promoting the diversity of workforces, the goal of ensuring the accessibility of workplaces, both as built environments and as places of human relations and attitudes, as well as advancing the accessibility of services and program delivery in those places.

This recommendation is also compatible, I think, with the application of certain powers for the proposed Canadian accessibility standards development organization. Under paragraph 19(a) of the bill, that organization can “enter into contracts, agreements or other arrangements with any person or entity, including any government,” as stated.

Under clause 20, the Canadian accessibility standards development organization would be authorized to develop accessibility standards for any person or entity, including any government in Canada or elsewhere.

To support this recommendation, a new series of clauses would need to be added in part 4 of the bill, largely following the format and content of the clauses already contained therein for regulated entities in broadcasting, telecommunications and transportation. I assume that some of those clauses may well be the subject of amendments too.

Part 4 could be amended by adding new clauses, provisionally clauses 73 to 79, that would outline the requirements for entities that I've suggested be added to subclause 7(1). These entities would be required to have in place accessibility plans and actions.

This new part in part 4 could be called “regulated entities in receipt of federal contracts or loans or subsidies for goods and services and others”. These new sections would therefore address the requirements for organizations that receive federal funding or contracts to have in place an initial accessibility plan, the establishment of process, etc.

In conclusion, in my submission I identify two recommended amendments to the bill. I'm happy to talk more about the application or many other aspects of this historic piece of legislation.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Now, from People First of Canada, we are joined by Kory Earle, President, and Shelley Fletcher, Executive Director.

Thank you both for being here. The next seven minutes are yours.

[Kory Earle, President, People First of Canada]

Good morning, Chair and members of the committee.

For those of you who do not know who we are, People First of Canada is the national voice for people labelled with intellectual disabilities. We want to thank you for the opportunity to be here today and for allowing us the chance to have our voices heard.

We would first like to say that we're very pleased that Canada is moving forward with a federal accessibility act that will help remove and prevent barriers to inclusion that people with disabilities experience every day in this country.

Since the beginning of this act, People First of Canada has been part of the work and consultations held across this country. We have worked with the national disability community and the federal government to get as many people with disabilities as possible to give their input on this act as it was being built. We also went to great efforts to ensure that the voice of people with intellectual disabilities was represented in the consultations right across this country.

Having a disability is not cheap. Many people with disabilities cannot afford all the supports they need to fully participate in society. By and large, people with disabilities live in poverty more than most other groups in society. Within the disability community, people with intellectual disabilities live in poverty more than other people with disabilities.

In the principles section of the act, 6(b), (c), and (d), it states, “all persons must have the same opportunity to make for themselves the lives that they are able and wish to have”, and “all persons must have barrier-free access to full and equal participation in society,” and “all persons must have meaningful options and be free to make their own choices, with support if they desire, regardless of their abilities or disabilities”. However, without disability supports, many people with intellectual disabilities will not have these opportunities, access or meaningful options, because they do not have the disability supports to take part. Disability supports are an important part of having full and equal participation in society and should be addressed in this act.

Plain language has been a long-standing concern for people with intellectual disabilities. This is an accommodation right: to receive information in a format that is accessible to our members.

Since the beginning of the work on the act, People First of Canada has been pushing for documents and information in plain language, but rarely have we been accommodated. In fact, most documents about the act that are in plain language were either requested by or produced by People First of Canada.

We have seen some regulations that mention plain language, but they are not written in plain language. We are concerned that further documents around the act will not be accessible to people with intellectual disabilities. We are asking that the government produce plain-language documents about the act. This will accommodate people with intellectual disabilities, and it will also make the information more accessible to many others, like people with low literacy and print disabilities, as well as seniors and new Canadians.

[Shelley Fletcher, Executive Director, People First of Canada]

We feel that the act needs to have timelines and deadlines listed for the changes required, as well as for reporting on these changes. Without deadlines, organizations may not do what they need to in order to increase accessibility and remove barriers.

As well, there need to be timelines for putting regulations in place. Without timelines and deadlines in the act, how can we check to see that the act is working? We ask that the bill be changed to include timelines and deadlines for changes and reporting.

People First of Canada strongly believes that all complaints about the act not being followed need to go to the accessibility commissioner. Right now, the act has different ways to make complaints, which are based on what organization is being complained about. It is confusing and will make it harder for people with intellectual disabilities to make complaints when an organization is not following the act.

We also strongly believe that the act needs to be enforced by the accessibility commissioner and not by individual organizations or agencies. We believe that the act must be the same in all areas and that certain organizations should not get to make their own rules. We ask that the bill be changed so that there is one complaint process and that the process be done through the accessibility commissioner.

We're concerned about standards in the new Canadian accessibility standards development organization, CASDO. This new standards organization will develop the standards that will become regulations to be followed.

We feel that this organization must include people with intellectual disabilities on their board and in their work. This organization needs representation from people with lived experience in order to do its job of identifying, removing and preventing barriers through creating accessibility standards. We also believe that people with intellectual disabilities need to be included in the monitoring of the act to make sure government is making changes based on what the United Nations says it must do for people with disabilities.

We think there is too much time before the act is reviewed to see if it's working. We think it should be reviewed much sooner than is stated in the bill, which is five years after the first regulation under the act is made.

[Kory Earle]

Intellectual disability is complex when it comes to accommodation. In the past, we have not done a good job of including and supporting people with intellectual disabilities in our society. Historically, our group has been devalued in some of the worst ways: through institutionalization, forced sterilization, abuses and murder.

We were probably the last group to the tables where decisions about us were being made. To this day within the larger disability community, people with intellectual disabilities are still referred to as “the left behind of the left behind”.

For us, this act is a positive step forward towards ensuring an inclusive and accessible Canada that values everyone. With the necessary changes to the bill, we believe this is a chance for us to have a more accessible country where we are truly valued, present and included.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thanks very much to both of you.

Finally, from the Public Service Alliance of Canada, we have Marianne Hladun, Regional Executive Vice-President, Prairies Region, and Seema Lamba, Human Rights Program Officer, negotiations and programs branch.

Thanks to both of you for joining us. You have seven minutes.

[Marianne Hladun, Regional Executive Vice-President, Prairies Region, Public Service Alliance of Canada]

Thank you.

The Public Service Alliance of Canada strongly believes that persons with disabilities should be able to fully and equitably participate in all aspects of Canadian society.

Our union represents thousands of federal public sector workers, so I'll be focusing on accessibility in employment and the impact on employees with disabilities in the federal sector.

Both Bill C-81 and the 20-year-old federal Employment Equity Act require federal employers to create plans to eliminate barriers in employment for persons with disabilities. While the Employment Equity Act is imperfect, it does provide an established framework that employers and unions have been working under for many years.

We recommend improving the Employment Equity Act and referring the employment aspects of Bill C-81 to the Employment Equity Act provisions for several reasons.

Bill C-81 only mentions the Employment Equity Act twice and makes no reference to how the two pieces of legislation will work together. This overlap and lack of clarity will create confusion for employers, employees with disabilities and unions.

In order to comply with both pieces of legislation, employers will have to create two plans which at least in part do the same thing. What if the two plans conflict? Will one plan override the other?

The Employment Equity Act requires employers to consult and collaborate with bargaining agents in preparing, implementing and revising their employment equity plans. Bill C-81 only requires employers to consult with persons with disabilities when creating accessibility plans.

Bill C-81 is vague about what should be included in those accessibility plans, while the Employment Equity Act is very specific about what must be included in employment equity plans.

We strongly recommend amending paragraph 5(a) of Bill C-81 to clarify that accessibility in employment must be dealt with under the provisions of the Employment Equity Act and that all regulated entities are responsible for implementing employment equity for persons with disabilities. All other references to employment in the bill should then be amended to reflect this change.

Bill C-81 does not address hiring and supporting employees with disabilities, nor does it mention the role of the Treasury Board as the employer for the federal public service, or the role of the Public Service Commission, which oversees federal public service staffing. The Employment Equity Act does include these responsibilities.

The duty to accommodate in the workplace is also an important aspect of accessibility in employment. Even with the protection of the Canadian Human Rights Act, public service workers continue to be routinely denied accommodation at work.

The Treasury Board directive on leave and special working arrangements effectively discriminates against many employees with disabilities who are on long-term sick leave by effectively forcing them to retire from the public service after two years. Accommodation-related grievances and human rights complaints often take years before they're resolved.

The Joint Union/Management Task Force on Diversity and Inclusion in the Public Service recommended that a centralized, systematic approach be developed for accessibility and accommodations, including centralized funding for accommodations.

Right now, the responsibilities are devolved to departments, resulting in a patchwork of approaches and applications of the employer's duty to accommodate. To fix this, Bill C-81 should be amended to require Treasury Board and the Public Service Commission to make annual public progress reports to the accessibility commissioner; to require departments and agencies in the core public service to provide progress reports to Treasury Board; to require Treasury Board to set up a central accommodation fund for the public service; and to require that all federal government policies be reviewed to examine and eliminate any barriers to persons with disabilities.

We also recommend making consequential amendments to the Financial Administration Act and the Public Service Employment Act to centralize disability-related issues and accessibility in the public service, and to ensure that Treasury Board and the Public Service Commission are responsible for those issues and cannot delegate that responsibility.

Bill C-81 provides that individuals can file complaints regarding a contravention of the regulations, but there is no way to file a complaint about a violation of the act. This unfairly limits the substance of complaints. For example, an individual can't file a complaint if an organization doesn't even have an accessibility plan.

The complaints provisions are also unevenly applied to unionized employees in the federal sector. Bill C-81 allows for workers covered under all the federal public service labour laws to take their complaints through the grievance process. However, it does not do the same for federal public and private sector workers covered under the Canada Labour Code. All workers who have recourse through a collective agreement should be allowed to have their complaints heard through the grievance process, and the arbitrator should have the power to interpret and apply the proposed accessible Canada act.

The grievance process has embedded within it a right to appeal and review decisions. It allows workers to file a grievance that addresses multiple workplace issues, including accessibility, without making them pursue multiple parallel complaint processes.

We recommend amending subclause 94(1) to allow a complaint to be filed in relation to a contravention by a regulated entity of any provision of this act, or any regulations made under subclause 117(1). We also recommend including an additional exception, similar to those in subclauses 94(2), 94(3) and 94(4), that applies to all unionized workers under the Canada Labour Code, and that will ensure these workers can access the grievance and arbitration process.

Finally, we recommend that adequate funds be allocated to the proposed accessibility commissioner, the Canadian accessibility standards development organization and the Canadian Human Rights Commission to ensure that these organizations can fulfill their mandates under the new act.

Thank you.

Ms. Lamba and I are pleased to answer any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to all of you.

We're going to start questions with MP Barlow, please.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for your excellent input. It is certainly beneficial when you come to the table with suggestions and potential solutions. That helps us a great deal as we weave our way through this.

Several of you brought up concerns that we have also raised regarding the lack of timelines and meaningful deadlines to establish standards, in terms of exactly what this bill is intended to achieve.

I'll start with Ms. Jodhan. You were the first to bring up that there are no meaningful timelines or deadlines in this legislation. In your opinion, or in Barrier-Free Canada's opinion, if you've done some work on this, what would you like to see as part of this bill regarding deadlines and a timeline to have standards in place? What would Barrier-Free Canada like to see as part of this legislation?

[Donna Jodhan]

As far as Barrier-Free Canada is concerned, it is very important that timelines and deadlines be firmly in place. In our humble opinion, maybe there could be a timeline or deadline of two years after this legislation is passed whereby we can judge what has gone on, what needs to be put in place or what needs to be worked on.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Prince, you also brought up this issue. Would you share that opinion about a two-year timeline at least? I think she's right in terms of there being no metrics in this bill to understand what we're trying to achieve and what the goal is.

[Prof. Michael Prince]

Right.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

What would be your recommendation when it comes to a timeline?

[Prof. Michael Prince]

The concept of progressive realization, which is identified earlier on as one of the guiding principles of this bill, certainly reflects international practice at the UN, and thinking in other jurisdictions. I think what we need to do is flesh out what that actually means.

I'm of the school of thought that, as we have seen in some provincial laws on accessibility—whether that's Ontario, Manitoba, or Nova Scotia now—there be an aspirational statement. For example, in 2005, the Ontario act put out a 20-year time horizon for a barrier-free Ontario. That's working towards 2025, with five-year updates and reviews.

Another feature in some of the laws is what might be called “put your own house in order first”. That's the idea of the Government of Canada, the Parliament of Canada and the larger federal public service being a model employer and model organization, so that the obligations may be phased in first on timelines and deadlines that would pertain to federal public administration.

Some of the sectors I'm suggesting be included further out, such as some of the non-profits, foundations, even my own university. Perhaps that's the second phase. On private sector conversations, there would be a staggered wave of deadlines and timelines for different sectors that would cascade out. That would be another approach. You see that across a lot of countries and other jurisdictions.

Certainly the reviews then would be more timely than waiting until the first regulations and then five years after that. That probably suggests that we wouldn't have our first review until about 2025 or 2026. That's very troubling in terms of an age of accountability and transparency.

I hope that helps.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Yes. That's excellent.

You touched on my next question briefly in your answer as well.

In our opinion, I think all of us here would agree that this is a very important step forward. It is something that is needed and certainly welcomed, but we also want to ensure it's done correctly. There's not a lot of point in rushing something like this through so we can put a sticker on it or check a box off, without really having any meat to this legislation.

One of the other issues that concerns me with this bill in the way it is written now is that there is a lot of “do as I say, not as I do”. With the number of exemptions in this legislation, almost every federal government department can apply for an exemption. However, federally regulated private-sector industries cannot.

That's my opinion, and I'd like your opinion. Should this be treated equally among all these different organizations?

To me, it sends a very poor message that we want the federally regulated industries to do this, but the government departments are probably not going to do this. What is your opinion on that?

[Prof. Michael Prince]

I used to teach at Carleton in the school of public administration. I lived here for many years. Both of my daughters were born here. I now live on the west coast, in Victoria.

This bill, to me, with respect, reflects that it was written in the bubble of Ottawa. This is written from the point of view of traditional management focus, organizational focus. This is not people-centred. This is about departments making sure that in the negotiations and drafting of this bill, exemptions and deals were cut.

I understand that every legislation is a bunch of compromises. This one is all over it in terms of broadcasting, transportation and others, and sectors that should be in this bill are missing. Let's do this right, and let's do it thoughtfully.

The fact that in almost page after page in parts 4 and 5 there are exemptions and exceptions is a terrible message in talking about fundamental human rights. I don't know if we do this with other groups, but we've signed the UN convention, so I find it disturbing. I think there should be a level playing field.

This is basically a machinery-of-government bill. There's not much social policy or public policy in this bill. This should be about people front and centre. I get that we have to have administrative enforcement and compliance, and on that note I'd like to see a lot more about incentives and education.

The minister has talked quite eloquently over the last year, and when she was the minister before—a few years back—about education. If we're going to roll out this as an effective implementation, we have to have education happening at the same time. We have to prepare Canadians to accept addressing some systemic attitudinal barriers, and what Jutta talked about, some of the systemic practices in the digital domain and others.

That's going to take education. I'd like to see more carrots in this, and not a bunch of real or implied sticks.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you very much.

[Prof. Michael Prince]

I believe in enforcement. We need a strong law, but we also need to send message of support and education and persuasion as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

We have MP Long, please.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Good morning to our witnesses. Thank you for your presentations.

In my riding of Saint John—Rothesay, Bill C-81 certainly has been met with a lot of excitement, anticipation and hope. I work directly with organizations like CCRW, and key industries and other organizations that finally see, maybe things aren't perfect, but the light at the end of that tunnel where as a government we are moving forward and changing the culture. This isn't only an opportunity for people with disabilities, but an opportunity for all Canadians.

I have so many questions to ask. I'm going to start with how the CASDO board is comprised. I know part 2 of the bill proposes 50 plus one of CASDO board seats be allocated to people with disabilities. We certainly heard some concerns around the table about the composition of that board.

My first question is for Ms. Jodhan. How do you believe this clause could be rewritten in order to address your concerns regarding the degree to which these appointments are considered?