Human Resources Committee on Oct. 30th, 2018

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I have to stop you there, because I have a limited amount of time.

[Dr. Francine de Montigny]

My apologies. You wanted to talk about programs.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Ms. Verdon, earlier I mentioned an organization in my riding that has to do four fundraisers just to keep its doors open. We know that some support organizations for bereaved individuals have had to close.

What can the government do to better support those organizations?

[Chantal Verdon, Researcher, Centre for Studies and Research on Family Intervention, Université du Québec en Outaouais, As an Individual]

I want to be clear that Service Canada is a key gateway. Families, especially immigrant families when they arrive in Canada, turn to different institutions. I think Service Canada has a good reputation and considerable reach. If, on its website, the organization were to recognize this type of bereavement and the fact that it was significant and required serious attention, I think it would send the right message. If hospitals and service providers in the various provinces and regions aren't able to get that message out, I think the government should be that gateway or portal. It could send a powerful message.

Yes, there is a measurable financial impact. Organizations cannot survive when they don't receive funding and when people don't know about them. Through an online portal, Service Canada could easily give ordinary Canadians access to resources in every province. That alone, would send a very clear message. It would involve updating the website and making it very clear to provinces that the issue matters and requires serious attention. That would apply to all levels, including regions and municipalities.

As a result, support groups could be created in every health or community organization. The message would resonate with parents, who can sometimes downplay their situation after being told the same thing over and over again. The issue could be something as simple as trying to cancel a health card they received, following the baby's death. Everything can be complicated for these families. For example, some doctors do not automatically sign the document allowing the mother to take time off because they want to ask her about it first. We can all agree that, just by asking a mother that question, the doctor is creating doubt in her mind. Here, that is clearly indicated.

Unfortunately, health professionals, themselves, are not very familiar with the phenomenon. It's important to consider the beliefs and skills of the professionals working on the ground. Keep in mind that bereavement courses are considered optional in training programs. We were talking about bereaved mothers and fathers, but I can tell you that perinatal bereavement comes last. Sending a clear message is essential, and you are the vehicle for that. Whether we are talking about professionals, families or municipalities, it's time that bereavement be recognized in Canada. It's a way to protect the health of Canadians. When people continue to carry their grief and downplay it, they suffer. They develop all manner of health problems in the long term. All that to say, sending a clear message is key.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

That represents significant costs for Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Next is MP Long, please.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you to our witnesses this morning.

I want to start with you, Ms. de Montigny and Ms. Verdon.

Your presentation was outstanding. There's so much information here, so much factual information, studies and so on. I agree with it all, by the way.

At one point—and I just kind of jotted it down quickly—you talked about the workplace being one area where bereavement is less recognized. That hits with me, because many years ago, I had a friend who went through the same kind of thing. One of the quotes you had was about somebody who suffered the loss in January, and then in March they were let go because they were told they lacked passion. That hits home with me because I had a friend who went through the very same thing.

What can we do as a federal government to improve that situation for people who have to go back to the workplace and who really suffer in silence that way? It's a wide-ranging question.

We always hear, as federal politicians, that you can only do so much, because maybe it's more provincial jurisdiction. Is it more funding for the province? Is there direct support we can give to organizations, maybe some funding stream that we can provide federally for organizations to tap directly into the federal government?

It's an obvious problem. Again, your presentation was wonderful. There's so much here. How do you see us helping in that situation?

[Dr. Francine de Montigny]

As I said, it's a multi-systemic answer. There's not only one answer.

There is a problem, and it might be a strain that provinces deal with some kinds of decisions and the federal government deals with others.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I just want to jump in here. I agree it's multi-dimensional, but what would you recommend?

[Dr. Francine de Montigny]

There's one thing I'm wondering. Why are you not talking about Health Canada?

Health Canada could also have an educational mandate. They would train the health professionals, train the people that are in the day-to-day health care system, systematic training that would be available across Canada. That's a mandate I think of Health Canada.

I recommend societal messages. When you have mental health messages across Canada, campaigns on different topics, it can permeate. It kind of puts pressure on the individual governments to be doing something.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Further to your testimony, though, how do we drive that into the workplace? It's great to say that Health Canada should be more involved or that we need to educate Service Canada to be more compassionate, but how do we get into the workplace to offer that support?

[Dr. Francine de Montigny]

Training the people at Service Canada is already something.... If these people answer the phone correctly, become a model of how a service should be more sensitive to bereaved parents, bereaved people, it can become a model.

It needs to start somewhere. It starts with making people aware of what bereavement means, making them aware that they are real babies. With the pictures that I shared, the parents agreed that we bring their babies to this room so that we can see they are real babies.

I'm not sure how exactly to answer that. All I can tell you is that it's really important to train the people working in government organizations at every level.

Training is needed. Just by holding this meeting, the Canadian government is sending a message that the bereavement of parents matters. It needs to be talked about in the media. It needs to be said publicly. The work of this committee is a step in that direction.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I appreciate what you're saying, and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I'm still looking for something that we can grab onto, some specific thing.

[Dr. Francine de Montigny]

I think it's parental leave, as my colleague said. I would say having at least 20 weeks of parental leave, and call it “grieving leave”. Parents could take it or not take it.

It forces the workplace to recognize that it's not a vacation. Some parents were asked what they did during their vacation.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Right.

[Dr. Francine de Montigny]

They lost a baby. It's not a vacation.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Ms. Hatto, I believe in your presentation you mentioned that your husband went back to work after three weeks.

Is that correct?

[Gillian Hatto]

Yes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

You mentioned that you stayed home for two years. Your husband went back after three weeks. That obviously happens in a lot of situations. I don't mean that in a bad way at all, but the husband probably does go back first.

What would you recommend that we could do, as the federal government, to offer some flexibility for people who go back? Is it flexible EI? Is it a longer leave? What could we do, as the federal government, to help in that situation where your husband went back after three weeks and probably had to go through a nine-to-five day and suffer?

[Gillian Hatto]

I agree with the other witnesses.

As I said, when I was looking into types of benefits that I could access provincially, I only saw the sickness benefit. I think that having something for bereavement leave for parents who have lost a child would send a clear message that the government recognizes the important need for parents to have that chance to grieve.

I don't want to put words into his mouth because he's not here, but when my husband went back to work, he wanted it in some ways, maybe for that routine to continue—

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Sure. Some people do.

[Gillian Hatto]

—and he wasn't off work when we had Hazel. I was home with her, and he wasn't. His routine was to go to work every day, but he also had an office door that he could close. He did tell me that on many occasions he had to shut that door and he had to be alone. He probably wasn't the best employee at that time in terms of being productive.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Sure. Yes.

[Gillian Hatto]

I don't know.... As I said, something for me that really helped was doing that grief work, which was going to see my grief counsellor, having that be something that was provided for me. It may be, for people who go back to work, is there some way that the government can support parents to see counsellors, psychologists or psychiatrists within their workday? I know that's really difficult.