Human Resources Committee on Nov. 29th, 2018

[Julie Kelndorfer]

Thank you for the comments and questions. This is very challenging, for sure. I think any decisions that are made to change the support programs, yes, need to take in those considerations.

I think also that there's an economic and a basic need for people to be taken care of. Perhaps it's an awareness. Perhaps it's education that needs to happen. We need to support people. We know that it's a significant concern. The occurrence of episodic conditions is significant: 1.2 million, according to some of Adele Furrie's work, some 2012 numbers. That's about half of the people of working age who have a disability. Yes, people don't want to, but I think if we work together and really try to move the needle to increase awareness—which this committee is doing—that would be really....

Keeping people employed is so important to our economy and to employers. I think the studies—

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

We're told if we increase EI we're going to destroy the opportunity to hire people, yet if you don't provide the EI, you can't hire certain groups of people.

[Julie Kelndorfer]

Yes, I know. It's a catch-22.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Are the charitable organizations that support people in these circumstances—because that's what it's now left to, charity—now that the political ban on talking about poverty has been lifted from the charitable organizations, prepared to step up and talk about the need for EI reform, even if it means changing the premiums table?

[Julie Kelndorfer]

I think we do it all the time.

Drew, maybe you want to speak to this too.

But yes, it's important for us as organizations to advocate for improved quality of life for people with MS and other disabilities, for whatever needs to happen in order to change things. I think there are also other....

By looking at that whole renewal of the entire support system, perhaps there are opportunities for other programs to come in, in terms of social innovation or such things. Yes, I think there are some short-term things we're asking for, but there's also some long-term things.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Structural change....

[Drew Woodley]

I'll simply add that, first and foremost, this is about keeping people in their jobs. If this is an episodic disability where they're not necessarily going to be unable to work long term, it's about those shorter periods. This is about keeping them employed. I think that's something that all parties can get behind.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Even if it requires an EI premium change...?

[Drew Woodley]

Where the alternative is the added anxiety of not necessarily being able to stay in the job, which exacerbates a neurological condition like epilepsy or like MS to the point where they can't work, I think the positive alternative is, in any scenario, people being able to work. That is the best solution.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

I just want to be clear, because there is massive push-back on even touching the EI premium increases, which are going to be required to finance this. You're prepared to make that argument to those people who support these services.

[Drew Woodley]

I think it's certainly worth the discussion. I think if the response is that we would rather have them unemployed.... I don't think that's a response they would give. It's also worth remembering that they already paid in, that this isn't them using a program that they haven't already paid for. It's better access to a program that they're contributing to.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

In the current model, though, the benefits are scaled to the pay-in.

[Drew Woodley]

Going forward to the actuarial tables in the long term...yes.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

They've paid in, but the benefits are scaled to the contributions now. If you change that, something has to move.

[Drew Woodley]

Yes. I do think that would be a reasonable conversation to have. If the longer term economic outcome is people staying employed and the economic benefits that go along with that require a slight adjustment to the amount people are paying into EI, longer term, that's a good conversation to have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

MP Falk, please.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you all for being here and sharing your stories, because they are quite intimate. It almost puts you in a vulnerable situation. I thank you for sharing those.

Mr. Yurdiga, you made a statement in one of the questions, I think, that you answered for Mr. Diotte. The MS Society was where you went for support. Once they have a diagnosis like this, where can people go for support, other than organizations like the MS Society?

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

For us, that was the only option. Outside of going to a specialist, the MS Society was the place we went to for information and great support.

We were talking about EI and everything else. It's about educating the employer and educating government. It's actually more cost-effective to have people employed than not. It's either going to fall to a provincial program or a pension.

I think we have to look at a broad spectrum. Providing access to employment for people with episodic disabilities is actually going to be cheaper for the system in the long run, whether they're going to end up in a nursing home, or whatever. The point is to keep people mentally healthy, contributing to society and being part of the community.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you.

I have another quick question, and then I'm going to split the rest of my time with my colleague, Mr. Arnold.

When people are denied by Service Canada, how is that spoken to them? Is there compassion behind that? Is there an understanding of the break in the system, so to speak? Does that make sense?

Do Service Canada workers have the understanding and the compassion, even if they still are denying somebody an EI claim because they don't have enough hours, or they take away a week because they worked a day, or that type of thing? Is there any compassion coming from the government bureaucratic side?

[Julie Kelndorfer]

Thank you for your question. That's an interesting one. I'd not actually ever heard or even thought about that piece, in terms of the denial.

We typically hear that people want to appeal, or we hear their frustrations. I don't know about you, Drew, but I haven't really heard about that interaction. I'm not sure that it's good or bad, but it is always....

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Drew.

[Drew Woodley]

I'm not sure that the denial happens at the window.

I think the Service Canada staff might help facilitate the application, but the notice for the ultimate evaluation and denial would probably come by mail or by email. I don't know if there is that opportunity for a face-to-face conversation with staff.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you.

Mel.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Do I have two minutes? Thank you.

Thank you all for being here today, including those here by teleconference.

Could each of you give us an idea of how many disorders or disabilities could be considered episodic? We've heard much about MS today. I think it's one of the more well-known ones, but I'm sure there are many others out there.

Mr. Yurdiga, would you like to start? Then I'll ask each of you for, possibly, a few examples of ones that are less known.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Episodic disabilities include a broad range of conditions—not conditions, but you have epilepsy and even severe migraines. Some people suffer such that they're in bed for days.

It should be based on the ability of a person to participate in society. It could be Crohn's disease. It could be any number of diseases. With people who have these episodic bouts—with whatever they're diagnosed with—we have to focus not on the term but on what we can do to ensure these people continue to contribute to society in the workforce and at home. I think we have to look at it not by naming 40 different disabilities. We're looking at what we can do for people who are currently suffering, and for future Canadians who will be diagnosed with an episodic disability, so they know there is support for them.

I don't think that naming them all is effective, but rather when somebody does suffer from something episodically, that they know there is support.