Evidence of meeting #142 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Éric Michaud  Director, Economic Analysis Division, Economic Policy Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development
Josée Bégin  Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
Vincent Dale  Assistant Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
Barbara Moran  Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Andrew Brown  Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment, Department of Employment and Social Development

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Good morning, everyone. We'll get started right on time.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, February 27, 2019, and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, February 28, 2019, the committee is resuming its study of precarious employment in Canada.

First up is MP Terry Sheehan from Sault Ste. Marie. Of course, he is the author of motion 194.

I want to apologize, Mr. Sheehan, that we had to bump you last time. We hope that we don't have to bump you too much this time. The next 10 minutes are all yours, sir.

11 a.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you very much to all the committee members, staff, and in particular my staff for doing a great deal of work on this. I truly appreciate it.

Good morning, it is a pleasure to be here today.

Usually, as the chair mentioned, I'd be introducing my motion to you, but I'm appearing after several excellent witnesses. I think it's fair to say that you all have a very good understanding of what I'm trying to accomplish here with M-194.

Why did I want this committee to study precarious employment in Canada? I believe Canada must be able to define precarious employment in a structured, cohesive manner so that we can recognize potential indicators and vulnerabilities that are uniformly identified across the country. The goal is to develop policy to target those who need it most. At the heart of this motion is that creating the very best foundation for developing appropriate and relevant policy to make positive changes is the most important outcome.

My riding of Sault Ste. Marie has faced its share of employment challenges. When we hear about communities with these types of challenges, it's often in such broad terms as low income, unemployment and economic downturn. However, when I was knocking on doors or chatting with constituents going about their day, I was hearing stories about personal situations that were much more intricate for them than simply “unemployed”. There were people who had a job but were worried about a contract being renewed. There were people who worked full time but had no sick leave or paid leave. There were people who worked two or three part-time jobs to piece together a full-time wage.

I found this incredibly interesting. I wondered how prevalent these employment scenarios were across the country and who was being disproportionately affected. As I mentioned briefly during one of the testimonies, I too had worked in what you might determine was precarious work, in contract positions for the public sector and as an owner of a business. I was self-employed as well.

In researching this type of patchwork or uncertain employment, I found a vast amount of research on various forms of precarious work. I was surprised to see that there existed no concrete consensus on what defined precarious work or how we can identify those affected by precarious employment. Most importantly, there were no organized ideas on what we can do about it, because so many working definitions of precarious employment were being applied across the nation.

For example, according to the International Labour Organization, precarious employment generally refers to a lack or inadequacy of rights and protections at work. This definition can apply to informal work but also to several types of formal work, including subcontracts, temporary contracts, interim work, certain types of self-employment and involuntary part-time work. These types of formal employment are considered more precarious because they are associated with reduced financial security and stability stemming from lower wages on average, less access to such benefits as private pension plans and complementary health insurance, and greater uncertainty about future employment income. I believe a key matrix for creating a definition needs to be clear on job security versus income security. The job security aspect is something the employer is involved with, but we can take action on income security as well, for example, legislated basic income, basic equality, or protected leave standards.

Because precarious work situations vary significantly, it is challenging to capture precarious employment with existing labour force statistics. Studies have focused on types of employment where individuals are more likely to face precarious conditions. Last week the committee heard from Colin Busby. He co-authored a report with the C.D. Howe Institute entitled “Precarious Positions: Policy Options to Mitigate Risks in Non-standard Employment”, which I referred to as part of my research. Mr. Busby is an authoritative voice in employment policy. He added some great points during his testimony. He pointed out that while Statistics Canada currently tracks non-standard employment, and this data is used in research on precarious work, it is not really the appropriate data to use. Specifically, with current data we cannot identify statistically how different groups of people are affected. Defining precarious employment will allow for more appropriate data to be collected.

Also, we need data to be able to track the timeline of precarity amongst certain groups on top of precarious work alone. Who is more likely to experience precarity long term? While the current statistics are an imperfect measure for precarious employment, the trends and composition effects of these statistics do provide important insights into the state and impact of precarious employment on Canadian society.

Certain groups are more likely to be in precarious employment. What current research shows us is that while no one is immune to the effects of precarious work, Statistics Canada data reveal that some groups are more likely to hold precarious jobs than others. A recent report from the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, entitled “No Safe Harbour”, found that more than a fifth of Canada's professionals—that's 22%—are in some form of precarious work, including part-time work, contract work or freelance work. This study reports that precarious work—this is a quote—“cuts across all employment sectors, professional occupations, wage levels, ages, and career stages.”

However, for women, as indicated, several studies clearly demonstrate that the labour market is tilted against women. In other words, women are disproportionately affected by precarious employment. Professional women are more likely than their male counterparts to be in precarious work, with women accounting for 60% of all precarious professionals. In 2017, 62% of workers in involuntary part-time employment and 52% of temporary workers were women. Newcomers are also extremely at risk for precarious employment.

In terms of age, unfortunately, you cannot count on age and experience helping you out. Data indicates a spike in the share of precarious work among the 55 plus age group, as well as among those with 10 or more years of experience in their profession. These are folks who are only 10 to 15 years away from retirement. If they're not able to put away money for a good retirement, how's it going to be for them in the future?

Younger workers are much more likely to be in precarious employment. Statistics Canada says that in 2017, 32% of 15- to 24-year-old workers held temporary employment, in contrast to 10% of 24- to 55-year-olds and 11% of workers 55 years and older.

In terms of education, interestingly, education alone won't shield you from that problem. This survey found that precarious professionals are actually more likely to have a post-graduate degree—30%—than non-precarious professionals, at 23%.

As well, having a full-time job might not be enough to avoid precarity, as 26% of precarious workers reported having a full-time job. Typically, these jobs lack security or lack benefits such as sick days or pensions.

Again, a study by the Law Commission of Ontario concluded that not only are youth and women overrepresented among precarious workers, but so too are racialized persons, immigrants, aboriginal persons, persons with disabilities and older adults. The panel of witnesses we heard from at this committee confirmed this to be true. They further pointed out the causal link to child and senior poverty resulting from precarious work.

Data also show that precarious employment as a proportion of working arrangements is more prevalent in certain sectors. Education, information, culture and recreation and agriculture have larger proportions of temporary employees. Witnesses also mentioned the federally regulated trucking industry, precarious government contracts and subcontracting as problematic.

Some sectors have large numbers of both temporary and self-employed workers. These sectors include culture and recreation, construction, health care and social assistance. Other sectors, such as education, accommodation and food services and the wholesale and retail trade, have large numbers of temporary workers as compared to the self-employed. Still other sectors, such as professional, scientific and technical services and agriculture, have large numbers of self-employed compared to temporary workers. Self-employment does not generally equate to precarity, as it is a choice. This is where the importance of identifying indicators becomes clear.

There is no doubt that there are many legitimate social and economic concerns regarding vulnerable employees in precarious employment. The combination of low income, lack of control over scheduling and lack of benefits, such as pensions and health care, personal emergency leave or sick leave, all together or in various combinations creates a great deal of uncertainty, anxiety and stress, which undermine the quality of life and the physical well-being of a wide swath of workers and their families in our society.

I'm thankful to have heard thoughtful and insightful questions from members of this committee during witness testimony and to have had such a breadth of expert witnesses testify on this issue to date. They've offered suggestions for solutions and their perspectives on problem areas. Most importantly, their experience in this field is invaluable.

In terms of problem areas, rights vary by province. Is there a regionality to precarious employment? We need to define this. Worker voice is suppressed when in temporary work. We heard that as well. Also, the triangulation of temp agencies, client and worker leads to confusion or omittance of regulations. Mental health issues increased. Depression, anxiety, self-esteem issues, and a lack of definition have led to a lack of effective policy.

The gig or sharing economy can offer flexibility for workers. Some individuals are choosing alternative forms of work arrangements for flexibility or personal job satisfaction. They may find that this is suitable to their way of life. As we see the landscape of the traditional workplace changing due to innovation and technology, we're now seeing a fundamental transformation to Canada's workforce. With workers not considered employees, we see issues with no T4s and therefore no employer contributions to CPP benefits, etc. We heard about employees and employers running into problems with the CRA because their intended agreements didn't meet the definition of the CRA requirements.

In July 2018, BMO released a report on the gig economy. The report states that 85% of companies surveyed in the study foresee an increasing move to an agile workplace. Employers estimate that in the next few years almost a quarter of their workforce will be working virtually or remotely. There is no doubt that innovation is a positive element of the changing workplace. With innovation changing how we live and work, we see new opportunities but also new challenges for Canadians.

The nature of work is changing, and we need to understand how it impacts our workers so that we can better protect Canadians. What role do unions play in this new world of work? Is this still a functional model for worker advocacy with the traditional unionized labour groups? Is it pertinent to the gig or platform economies?

We heard some excellent testimony from people like Francis Fong, who touched on many things. We also brought out some excellent questions. I think of MP Falk's questioning of the chamber where they agreed there is a need for more training and more cultural sensitivity around that.

Thank you very much, everyone. I really appreciate the opportunity to bring this forward to you for your input.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you, MP Sheehan.

The bells are ringing, and I would like to ask for unanimous consent to continue.

Do I have that consent?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB

No.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Okay. We will be back after the votes.

Thank you.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Could we come to order, please.

Do I have quorum at the table?

We have six. Okay, we'll come to order.

Welcome back, everybody.

We're going to change things up a little bit, given that we were interrupted for votes. Here is what I think would be fair, just to make sure that Terry is heard and we actually have an opportunity to ask him questions. Each side will get a question. Maybe keep it to about five minutes, because we do have government officials still to get to. When you break that down, we'll have roughly the same amount of time with both Terry and the other witnesses.

Starting us off, we have MP Falk, who would like to take the first question.

Go ahead.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Thank you, MP Sheehan, for being here.

You made mention in your remarks to something about legislating basic income. I'm wondering if you can expand on that. What do you mean by that?

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Basically, what I was mentioning was that we heard the expert testimony from various people talking about precarious employment. Two things were mentioned about precarity that really seemed to strike us. One was income security, and I don't want to say “versus” job security because I think they're very similar on a spectrum. I don't think they're diametrically opposed; I think they're more intersecting somewhere in the centre.

The legislation that I'd be referring to—and this would have to come through the government—is how exactly we can make individuals who are working precariously more secure personally, whether it's financial or through health benefits or through a variety of things in the testimony we heard.

We also heard about how important some of the recent changes are that were made by the government through things like Bill C-86, which is allowing some more flexibility for workers to work and to garner leave. That would be just one example of some of the legislation that has been introduced and was talked about around the table. That's what I was referencing.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Okay, thank you.

You mentioned that the labour market is tilted against women. How do we know, or is there any way of differentiating who, out of women who are wanting the work...? I know lots of women who prefer to work part time just because of the flexibility because of their kids, school and that type of thing, and that's a choice. Do we know even a percentage of how many women feel that the labour market is against them versus how many want to work part time or want to be more involved with family, if possible?

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Those points that you make are very salient, as well as the fact about the overall thought process of what is precarious and what isn't. There are those who choose to work in a position because of what they feel meets their needs, whether they wish to work part time, and they could be men or women.

The research I have done has shown that the market tilts against women, even women who take some leave and go on maternity leave and then raise their child for a bit. When they get back into the workforce, it's a lot slower for them to catch up, if you will, to their male counterparts.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

What is slower?

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Basically, it's the opportunities for them to get to the full-time work, to get from a contract position to full-time employment. You'll see that a lot.

I think Allyson Schmidt, who testified to this committee, is a single mother who has been working five different jobs, making about $25,000 a year, without benefits, without sick leave, and is an example of somebody who is working there.

It is tilted against women, from all the research I've done, where all things considered, 60% of women are working precariously, as opposed to men.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Yes, and I think having a good definition of that would help narrow it down, and we would be able to get a more accurate number.

You said that 22% of Canadian professionals find themselves in precarious work. Which type of professionals are we talking about?

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

That's a great question. The number is a little higher. I believe it's around.... I have to look at my number here. Sorry; you're right. It is 22% of Canadian professionals who are working in some sort of precarity. The interesting point, and it highlights and underlines it, is that people with post-secondary degrees are 30% more likely to be working in precarious employment as opposed to people who don't have a post-secondary degree, which is 20%.

I asked that question. This is why we need a definition. I asked the Canadian Chamber of Commerce and the Canadian Federation of Independent Business what industries are represented that way. They indicated there was no definition of precarious work, so they really couldn't tell me. I remember that the woman, I believe from the chamber, said that.

When you look at Mr. Fong's statements during his testimony, he also indicated that there are a great deal of professionals who are working.... He said that even the accountants he represents are exposed to precarious work for a variety of reasons, including some technological shifts that are happening where a lot of people are doing a lot of their base accounting through the Internet, so a lot of those people aren't being trained in that particular field. Part of the reason for the study is to define some of those industries and professions.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you very much.

Dan, you have five minutes.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Dan Ruimy Liberal Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Sheehan, for being here today. I wish we had a bit more time with you.

You have sat in on a few of the witnesses' testimonies during the study. Based on testimony so far, what actions do you want to see ESDC take?

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

I'm looking forward to the testimony that will be coming after me, but I think that, to begin with, obviously, at the crux of it is that we need a national definition on precarious work, because, without it, we are using a whole bunch of different thoughts and different studies on what precarity is. Once it is defined, I believe that the actions they can take.... As I've said in my speeches in the House, never has the world moved this quickly, nor will it ever move this slowly.

There are so many changes happening that I think the government needs to take a look at different ways in which they can introduce policies and potentially legislation dealing with people working precariously. You can start also at home, if you will. I mean, the government has the purview and can move rather quickly on what it does within itself in identifying who may fit the definition of precarious work working either for the federal government or in federally regulated industries, as they have. I think about pay equity and some of the proactive legislation that was passed by Parliament related to that.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Dan Ruimy Liberal Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC

You mentioned pay equity and modern labour standards. My colleague and you have mentioned women in the workforce. Do you see pay equity as something that can help minimize precarious workers?

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Oh, yes, I believe so. That is definitely one of the tools in the proverbial tool box. When we start as a society, as people, saying it's not really fair that somebody who is doing the same work—it could be in the same ministry—is sitting in a cubicle beside somebody who is receiving more pay. Why is that fair? Well, it's not, so it goes to precarious employment why some people who are working, regardless of gender, have full benefits, pensions, sick leave and full-time pay as opposed to the person sitting beside them who is not receiving them. Pay equity is a move that has been made in the right direction. I would certainly support that the work of pay equity does underline and highlight the need for a definition of precarious employment.

April 9th, 2019 / 12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Dan Ruimy Liberal Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC

You come from a northern community, Sault Ste. Marie. In my riding of Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, we are a smaller community, rural-urban. Do you see a difference between small local communities like yours and mine versus larger communities like Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver? If so, what kind of impact do you find it may have on communities like ours?

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

It's a great question. I'll go back to the testimony we heard from Allyson Schmidt. It was very powerful, very moving. She is from Sault Ste. Marie. Allyson is working in Sault Ste. Marie, has her family there, has a bunch of commitments. She's really working hard, as you know, making $25,000 a year with five different jobs. Allyson's situation and that of many people like Allyson, who are working in ridings like mine or yours, don't have the opportunity to move to the next city. The next largest city to Sault Ste. Marie is a three and a half to four hour drive to Sudbury. If you go west, it's eight hours to Thunder Bay. It's even more difficult for somebody who's working precariously in rural or semi-rural Canada, because there aren't as many opportunities there. This does not minimize what somebody who is working precariously in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal or Halifax is exposed to. It's even more difficult in small communities in rural and semi-rural Canada.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you.

MP Sansoucy, you have five minutes, please.

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Mr. Sheehan.

As you showed in your presentation, underlying your motion is our need to develop a definition. You heard me when I asked several witnesses who appeared before the committee whether we could use the definition from the International Labour Organization as a basis. You said earlier that there is no consensus, and all the witnesses told me it was difficult to provide a precise definition because it will not necessarily be restrictive. On the one hand, your motion seeks to develop a definition to target government objectives and solutions on precarious employment. On the other hand, we also know that a definition will not help Canadians who are currently faced with an emergency.

In light of the testimony that shows how difficult it is to develop a definition, which is really the basis of your motion, what could we recommend to the government?

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your question. It is very important.

The questions that have arisen through some of the expert testimony, I'll reference—I didn't get an opportunity to spend time because we ran out of time before the votes—what Francis Fong has said. As you know, he is the chief economist for the Canadian Chartered Professional accountants. I found what he said to be very interesting. He told us that any definition of precarious work should start with the problem intended to be solved, which is people bouncing in and out of poverty. I agree with him. It should include volatile incomes, dangerous work. We heard testimony from a professor from the University of Ottawa who stated that as well. We should break down the definition into individual sections, by issue to be solved. A regulatory definition must provide clarity and also be precise. I think that's a good guiding principle as well.

You will recall some of the solutions that were suggested. Partnering is necessary for effective solutions, so having the government and the private sector able to do that. Another is for training on technological advances. We heard that over and over again in the testimony. The Pearson Centre said that entrepreneurship training is needed, but in high school, not later when you're already working. Through MP Falk's question that was also reiterated by the Canadian Chamber of Commerce. I thought that was very important to include, and then also include a continuum of precarity and support, implement teaching.... I already stated that.

Those are some of the factors that I thought were really important for us to consider addressing in our definition, to try to encapsulate some of that as well.

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Brigitte Sansoucy NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

As you and Mr. Fong pointed out, it is also important to establish a link with poverty. You talked about that earlier when you said that women's incomes were lower and that women still had jobs that were traditionally less well paid.

Earlier in the discussion, we talked about guaranteed minimum income that, like the pilot projects carried out in Manitoba and Ontario, can also be one of the potential solutions.

Do you think we could recommend that the federal government follow suit to ensure those pilot projects are carried out and that we better document the issue of guaranteed minimum income? Essentially, based on your motion, our recommendations should help move things in that direction.