Human Resources Committee on May 16th, 2019

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Up first we have MP Vecchio.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much to Blake Richards. I know this is something that he worked very, very diligently on. I had the opportunity to work on this as the shadow minister for families, children and social development—looking at the needs of these families and having the opportunity to speak to them as well.

I recognize that this government wants to come with the sign of compassion, but there are many programs that we see out there that need to have more flexibility.

My first question is with regard to the first-time home buyer incentive. I had put this into the record when I gave my speech on this.

Douglas Porter from BMO indicated:

The program will only apply to those with household income below $120,000, and with a maximum mortgage and incentive amount of 4-times.... As such, the impact will be contained to the lower end of the market below roughly $500,000 and, arguably, that’s the level where affordability challenges only really begin.

He continued to say that we'll understand the reality of these markets in both the greater Vancouver area and greater Toronto area, seeing that this incentive will actually not have the impact.

I went a little bit further. Last night, at 6:30 p.m. on May 15, there were only six listings on MLS for all of the greater Toronto area that would allow somebody to purchase a home for less than $500,000. The statistics from April 14 to May 12, covering 5,770 new listings, show that the The average home price in Toronto is $939,828.

How do you think this program will actually impact the housing market in Toronto and areas like Vancouver when only six homes in the greater Toronto area—only six—are available for this? Can you share with me how this is actually going to help the housing continuum in the area of Toronto?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Helping families, and younger families in particular, have access to safe and affordable homes has been at the core of our mandate since 2015. We know this because we've essentially doubled investments in housing in the first project—

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Specifically, with regard to the city of Toronto, can I have your thoughts on this?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I will come to that in a moment.

As I kind of mentioned already, we know that these challenges for younger families are particularly severe in places like Toronto, Vancouver and other larger cities. As we all know, when those younger families are challenged—

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Minister, this is my time. I have three questions. I want to get specific to Toronto. I want to look not specifically at the affordable, but at the end of the housing continuum, specifically at this first-time home buyer incentive that only allows six homes in the entire Toronto area to be looked at. If you could get specifically to that question....

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Although I will be passing the microphone, with your permission, to the CEO of CMHC, Evan Siddall, before I do that, I would signal that these are challenges that go beyond Toronto. However, they are particularly severe in Toronto. That program is going to make a very significant difference in the ability of younger families not only to reach their dreams of owning their first homes, but also to invest themselves in their families and in their communities.

If it is all right, Mr. Chair, maybe I should pass the floor to Evan.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Since you're going to be passing it over, I will pass this secondary question to you, as well, then, if that goes fine.

Part of the issue is that you're going to be borrowing $1.25 billion dollars over three years to have this program work. We have people and economists stating—and this is a quote—“If this offer sounds too good to be true, that’s because it is. This is a subprime lending plan that ought to raise red flags with taxpayers, who backstop the CMHC.”

Can you share with me how CMHC is prepared to deal with this risk, as well as specifically the Toronto markets where the affordability issue is key? That's why we're finding this continuum having issues. As we move outside of the greater Toronto area, we see the home prices continue to go up. Share with me how the risk is going to be dealt with and how six homes in Toronto...how that's going to be inflated greatly under this program.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Before Mr. Siddall does that, may I also say that he, being representative of CMHC, could also, if there was time to do that, signal how important CMHC's role is now in 2019 compared to previous...to 2015. CMHC not only has the tools, the knowledge, the data, the research, the staff—

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Okay. Thank you, Jean-Yves.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

—but also the policy tools to make a huge difference to the national housing strategy. Of course I will pass the rest—

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Minister Duclos. Thank you very much.

I have a minute and a half. If I could have a succinct answer, I would greatly appreciate it. It should be succinct and go directly to how you are dealing with the risk. I only have a minute and a half, and I have one more question.

[Evan Siddall, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation]

Shall I respond to that, Mr. Chair?

The first-time home buyer incentive is not a subprime lending program. It is not a lending program, in fact. It does not bear interest on the part of the borrower, nor does it require repayment at the insistence of somebody else. Those are both the hallmarks of debt.

The risk inherent in the program could go up or down, depending on house prices. We will manage that risk, as we do other risks.

In response to your first question, in 2018 there were 13,000 homeowners insured in the city of Toronto. The estimated number of those who were first-time home buyers is 11,000. Of those, 2,300 would have qualified for the program. That's in the city of Toronto.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

In the city of London, 68,000 people between the ages of 25 and 64 are unemployed. Their unemployment rate sits at 5%. There are also 10,000 jobs available, so obviously there is a real problem connecting employers to employees. We recognize that skills are part of the issue.

When the federal government talks about 5%, I'm wondering why it's not talking about the fact that 68,000 people in the city of London are not working at this time. They're not even in those unemployment numbers. Those people are outside those numbers. We recognize that some of them might be on disability. That could be 10% of them. What are you doing for those other 90%?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I'm afraid that's the time, unless you have a five-second answer.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's very unfair, because there would be so much to say about what we've done, what we're doing and what we hope to keep doing in the future to help workers be at their full potential in the labour market.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Long.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you to our ministers for being here this morning to share with us your vision for Canada. I want to thank you for what you are doing to change the lives of Canadians.

Certainly, one thing I have learned over my four years as a member of Parliament is that good government and good government policies are for the many, not for the few. Whether it's a program like the Canada child benefit, which is literally changing the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, or whether it's a national housing strategy whereby upwards of $55 billion is being invested to change the lives of Canadians, these are programs that make a difference in the lives of Canadians.

I'm proud to be part of a government that is delivering these programs, unlike, say, a tax-free savings account, which was proposed to be doubled in 2015 but which only 2.7% of Canadians actually maximized. Again, I thank you for what you're doing.

Minister Duclos, in my riding of Saint John-Rothesay we are making tremendous progress in our fight against child poverty and generational poverty. One of the other programs, though, that I think is transformational and will make a big difference in people's lives is the Canada workers benefit. As I understand it, by automatically enrolling low-income people in the benefit when they file their taxes, our government will help more than two million Canadians keep more of their paycheques.

What impact do you expect the implementation of the Canada workers benefit to have on the already record low poverty levels we have achieved through the introduction of the Canada child benefit and other historic investments in poverty reduction?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you, Wayne, for your hard work. I won't go into details about that, because it would be too damaging to your humility, but you worked very hard with me from the very start to engage with your community. I will keep very good and long-lasting memories of what we've done since then.

“Working for the many” is exactly what we've done since 2015. Investing in middle-class families and lower-income families makes a big difference. I mentioned earlier that we have a million new jobs, the lowest unemployment rate since 1976, middle-class families that are $2,000 better off than in 2015, the lowest-ever poverty levels in Canada and debt that is falling relative to the economy and will soon be at its lowest level in four decades. This is immensely great news, and it's because we have the right people in mind when we implement our policies.

The Canada workers benefit is exactly that type of benefit. By automatic enrolment, making it simple for families to receive the benefit, 300,000 low-income workers will receive the benefit, unlike in the previous, complicated, unfair system the Conservatives promoted.

The fact that we are making it more generous means that two million low-income Canadians will receive greater incentives and support to be engaged in the labour force. Of them, 75,000 will be lifted out of poverty. That's just one measure of the Canada workers benefit, which was introduced just a few weeks ago, on April 1.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Minister, for that answer.

I would like to share the rest of my time with MP Morrissey.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Minister, I want to acknowledge the very progressive changes that our government, under your leadership, made to the EI program, in stark contrast to the draconian measures that were implemented under the Harper Conservative government that we replaced.

One of my constituents wrote to me that getting people back to work and rewarding them for that work while on EI is important, as it puts money in workers' pockets and keeps them active in the workforce.

I am concerned about the most vulnerable of the seasonally unemployed—those working at minimum wage and just above—and I would appreciate your sharing your thoughts on this with the committee. If they find some part-time work while they're on an active EI claim, they really do not see the full benefit of that part-time work because of the clawback.

Following our theme of helping low-income working people, could you share your thoughts with the committee on how we could look at making improvements in that area?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Yes, we have indeed put into place significant improvements to the EI system, because we know that the EI system is absolutely essential for families who are suffering for reasons of loss of jobs, loss of health. They also sometimes go through normal cycles—maternity benefits, parental benefits. Sometimes they need to give help to others—the compassionate care benefit, the family caregiver benefits. All of these are important measures to look after those who can then look after others—children, sick ones, relatives and so on.

We've been doing quite a lot, and I could give you numbers. I am an economist. I like numbers. I could give you all the changes in detail. The simple point is that by helping people have a real and fair chance in life, everyone benefits and we all are better off.

What we need to do now, given the changing economic and social circumstances we see across Canada, coupled with the environmental challenges that are going to have an impact on the ability of businesses and firms and employers and employees to make ends meet, in the context of those important changes is that we'll need to continue investing, especially in areas of our country where we need the participation of everyone.

We need the full participation of the seasonal workers. The flexibility to the working while on claim program, which we put into place just a few weeks ago—and now it's a permanent program—is going to be helping workers who need to transition to a new job. They don't want to lose the hard-earned earnings they are getting while making that transition, so we want to make sure those workers have support and the ability they need to do exactly this sort of transition. Sometimes those transitions are absolutely essential because of the seasonal aspects of the economy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Now we will go over to MP Sansoucy for six minutes.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mister Minister and Madam Minister, thank you for being with us today for our study on votes.

I was very interested in what you said about the anticipated increase for the new horizons for seniors program. I can actually see the benefits of this program in the riding I represent. However, I’m most interested in what is not in the votes.

I was in the House last week when we debated Motion M-201 for an hour. I was angry. I felt that wanting to take credit for a beneficial reform has its limits. In the past year, I have tried four times to introduce a motion that says essentially the same thing. Four times, what we saw earlier in that meeting happened again. The Liberals, who have the majority on our committee, asked for the debate to be adjourned so that we could not discuss it.

In the past year, our committee could have done the study on the 15 weeks of EI sickness benefits. Four times, the Liberals were not allowed to vote for the motion.

In recent months, we have studied benefits for bereaved parents, a topic we discussed earlier, episodic disabilities, and precarious employment. Each time, witnesses have told us that the employment insurance program needs to be reformed and the sickness benefits improved. Most organizations, most of the public and most unions agree that action must be taken now. There is a broad consensus. In the past year, the committee could have taken action and conducted that study.

You met with Marie-Hélène Dubé, who collected 600,000 signatures. Yesterday, I held a public session in my riding on this issue, which was very popular. The issue affects people. Last week, I asked you about the story of William Morissette, from New Brunswick, who, in addition to fighting cancer, has to fight the government for his benefits. That's outrageous.

This reflected the many accounts we heard from people in similar situations who have exhausted the 15 weeks of sickness benefits to which they were entitled. Some sick people, like William Morissette, are turning to crowdfunding to survive. This can be seen across the country.

Figures from your department indicate that 150,000 people need more than 15 weeks. Let me stress that we are talking about 150,000 people who have qualified for employment insurance. The distinction is important. As witnesses from your department who appeared before our committee indicated, 6 of 10 people do not qualify for employment insurance.

Mr. Minister, in 2016, you and the Prime Minister said on, Radio-Canada’s Téléjournal, that employment insurance sickness benefits should be improved.

Sick people are looking forward to hearing what you intend to do about those benefits. So let me ask my question again. Mr. Minister, when exactly will you be improving EI sickness benefits?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Sansoucy.

You know how much I like having these conversations with you. You are a member of Parliament who listens to everyone suffering and struggling to make ends meet, for reasons totally beyond their control in all cases. Not only do you listen, you can also relay the messages you hear, and that I hear too.

As I just said, we know full well that the employment insurance system is fundamental to the economic security of millions of families in Canada. There will always be more to do and always more to say.

However, over the past few years, we have introduced two new special benefits. There is the shared parental benefit, which gives an additional five weeks to families who need some time to take care of their—