Human Resources Committee on Oct. 20th, 2016

[Geranda Notten]

This is an issue we have with all indicators. We have it with all economic indicators. We have it with inflation. We have it with poverty indicators. You want to have regular checks, but I wouldn't say every year. Look at it every five or 10 years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Now over to MP Sangha, please.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

I want to thank the panel for the fantastic expert opinions by everyone.

I will touch on immigration matters. I'm an immigrant myself, and I'm an immigration lawyer, too. I have come across many immigration problems in my community. People come here and they're new here. They face many challenges regarding new jobs, evaluation of their credentials, upgrading their education, discrimination, and many other things they come across. They face those problems. Those things contribute to poverty. I hope everybody will agree with that. We observe that in those things we can bring the changes and make improvements in the community—socially improving them, giving them a chance to rehabilitate themselves so that they are integrated into Canadian society.

Mr. Cook, what measures do you think you can suggest to improve their conditions?

[Derek Cook]

That's a good example of why poverty is much more than an economic issue. When we look at the situation that many immigrants, particularly recent immigrants, find themselves in, it is a confluence of factors. It's about the lack of recognition of qualifications. It's about the lack of social networks and connections. It's about racism and discrimination. If we simply raise income without addressing all of those other factors, we will have tackled an income problem, but we won't have necessarily tackled poverty, because a person is still excluded and discriminated against. So we have to tackle it all together.

Of course, a lot of these measures are not new. We know that we need to do something about the recognition of foreign credentials and qualifications, and we need to ensure that people whom we accept into Canada based on their credentials actually have the opportunity to work in the fields that we've accepted them to come here for. We need to address the issue of discrimination, and certainly measures to expand and strengthen the Employment Equity Act would help in that regard.

We also have to ensure that all employment is quality employment, so that even if you're coming and working at an entry-level job to gain experience, that job you're working in actually has the ability to pay your bills for you and your family and provide an adequate standard of living. I know a lot of people who come here may require upgrading or English language training, but they're not in a position to access that because they need to work. They may be trained, but they end up working in janitorial services or other lower-quality employment situations, and they don't have the opportunity to get the training they need. If we can provide that opportunity for everyone and make sure every job is a good job, then I think we have a chance to address that.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Do you have some special measures to recommend? What type of measures do you think should be provided to them?

[Derek Cook]

Again, on the employment side, we can take measures that would increase the quality of employment. That may be, certainly, raising the federal minimum wage, but also looking at the power of the federal government in its role as a procurer of services, as an employer, implementing living wage policies. There could be some significant impact there, as well as in working with the provinces to ensure that credentials are recognized and that there is some coherence between immigration policies that accept people based on their credentials and their ability to actually work in the position that we've accepted them to come to Canada for.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Mr. Cook, I have another question for you. You have 25 years of experience, and you have met with many people. You say that, when you meet people on the street and ask them why they are homeless, why they are on the street, everybody says that there are social problems or problems with the law.

What suggestions would you provide now? Can you express to the committee what measures can be taken to get them out of poverty and off the streets?

[Derek Cook]

I think one of the fundamental pieces of work that needs to be done, and which I commend the government for moving forward on, is a national housing strategy, because we need to ensure that there is an adequate supply of affordable housing. Once you do that, you move people who should not be in shelters into stable housing situations, and then you have the capacity in the system to work with those who need more supports.

The other strategy, which, again, I commend the government for moving forward on, is working on a housing-first model. We know that we need to get people into supportive housing. Once they are stable and housed, we can work on addressing a lot of the other issues people may have, maybe mental health issues or addiction issues, but we can't address those with somebody who is living on the street. They are not in a position to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, Mr. Cook.

Very quickly, we'll go to MP Sansoucy.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Cook, you are in favour of a $15 minimum hourly wage.

We know the federal government indicated last October 7 that it would not be increasing the federal minimum wage for employees subject to the Canada Labour Code, and that several provinces chose to increase the minimum wage, some to $15 an hour, progressively, over several years.

As I've already said at other meetings of this committee, we can't study poverty reduction in isolation. I represent a riding where the presence of SMEs is important, as is in fact the case throughout Canada. They generate approximately 85% of jobs. We cannot talk about a $15 minimum wage without considering tax programs for SMEs and the various support programs designed for them.

What do you have to say to those who claim that increasing the minimum wage could have negative consequences on employment?

[Derek Cook]

First of all, I'd like to point out, around the impact of the minimum wage on employment, that Alberta has recently raised its minimum wage. Alberta was one of two provinces in the last reporting from Statistics Canada that increased employment over the last month. One would think that if the minimum wage would have a negative employment effect, certainly then it would have been experienced in Alberta over the last quarter.

I worked on drafting a living wage policy for the City of Calgary, and I did extensive research in how living wages impact employment in various cities, because these have been implemented in over 100 cities in the United States. Typically, they do not have employment disincentives. What you find is that increasing wages tends to increase productivity, reduces employee turnover, and has economic benefits.

I would also suggest that the cost of low-wage employment is quite high, and it's borne by the rest of society. We know that people in lower income groups have higher health care needs, and there are higher costs for education and many other things.

Low-wage employment really constitutes a subsidy to business for the cost of that low-wage employment, and the cost of that subsidy is borne by the public sector.

I think that when we're talking about fair wages, we're really talking about how income security is a partnership between the individual to work, the employer to pay a decent wage, and the community and the state to step in when people aren't able to work. When we don't pay an adequate wage, one of the legs of that stool is broken.

That said, I do recognize there may be burdens on small and medium-sized enterprises, and there may be opportunities to use the tax system to address that so that for those who really would face undue hardship by a rapid increase in the minimum wage, that could be offset.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

You also referred very briefly to a guaranteed minimum income. We don't have much time left. In your opinion, could such a measure reduce poverty in Canada?

[Derek Cook]

I think it would be a measure that would reduce poverty, because we already have one, and it works. It's called the guaranteed income supplement. We know that it's been very successful in raising seniors out of poverty, and really what we're talking about is expanding that principle to the whole population.

What it does is it simplifies our processes and streamlines them, but it also provides the assistance that people need with a certain amount of dignity, and it doesn't require means testing. It is simply through the tax...most suggestions would be we do it through the tax system and you simply qualify, as a right, which really is what we're obligated to do under our human rights obligations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I'm afraid I have to cut you a little short there, seeing as the time is 10:45. I apologize.

I want to take the opportunity to thank all of our panellists again.

We do have another meeting in this space right at 11 a.m. so we can't mingle too long.

Thank you, as always, to my colleagues on both sides for asking such great questions. Thank you as well to those who make it possible to have this meeting, the translators, all the tech folks, and of course the people who sit beside me, the clerk and the analysts. Thank you to everybody.

Have a great day.