Human Resources Committee on Feb. 9th, 2017

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Fair enough.

In terms of the ratios for putting up the new apartment buildings, would you suggest that certain percentages need to be affordable? That's what I'm looking for, the finer detail of new construction. However, we're out of time, so perhaps you could provide that for the committee.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

Now we'll go over to MP Long.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for their great presentations.

The committee is formed and travelling nationally to come up with innovative solutions to poverty reduction.

Certainly, Mr. Kliffer, I was extremely interested in the land banking concept that you talked about. I'm in Saint John and you're in Saint John. I've heard you speak about it before, but again, it's something that, as a committee, potentially we could grab onto and say this is something that's very innovative.

You mentioned how land banking had some success in Flint. Let's assume we could do a land banking pilot in Saint John, New Brunswick. How would you see the first steps of that going? Can you give us, as briefly as you can, how you would see that forming, how you would see the levels of government interacting to make that happen, and a timeline?

[Jody Kliffer]

Land banking is successful when it's complemented by support from different levels of government, governmental support, and especially by on-the-ground planning support. Neighbourhood planning and that sort of thing has to come in step, along with municipal financing, to support that sort of initiative, because it can't operate in isolation and be successful. It has to operate in tandem with other strategies that build that framework.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

You would need total collaboration between really the two levels, the province and the city. Is that fair to say?

[Jody Kliffer]

I would say it would be ideal to have that scenario. Right now, there's a group that has been looking at doing a pilot project in the north end, where they are pulling together different community not-for-profit operators and some private sector investors to try to get a seed of the idea growing.

I think really, to answer your original question, you would need to have a research position that was fully paid and funded to investigate how we can look at a land bank operating in Canada under the umbrella of whatever policies and regulations we have, because we're different from what happens in the States. They would need to figure out and map out what these differences are, how this can be active in operating in different provinces, and do that in partnership with different levels of government, because again, it's going to be important that it gets buy-in from the municipal government as much as it does from the federal government.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Just quickly, do you have any thoughts on why it hasn't happened in Canada? It just seems to be such a great concept. Has no one across the country really adopted it?

[Jody Kliffer]

Personally, I think we haven't because we tend to be a reactionary species; we don't proactively go after problems. We haven't had the level of problems with our built environment that America has had since the foreclosure crisis. We had tighter banking regulations. We didn't have the mass exodus of people from urban centres in the same way they have. Although I think we're on the brink of some type of emergency in some communities in our country that are facing this sort of decline, we haven't hit that crisis mode, and unfortunately, I don't think we'll do it until we have to react to it.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you.

Ms. Arsenault, I know you talked about these programs. They're great programs. In fact, I shared these programs on my Facebook page this week. I was amazed by the number of people who didn't know about the programs. It's unbelievable. There's the Canada savings program, or this one here where basically you can have $2,000 in an account for one of your kids if you make under $45,000.

I wanted to make the comment that I think there's a lost opportunity for more collaboration between the federal government and the provincial government. You talked about the OPT and the OPT2, and we're coming up on the federal side with the tackling poverty together initiative, and so on and so forth.

Do you see opportunities where the federal government can work more in collaboration with the province and ESIC to actually deliver more poverty reduction strategy?

[Althea Arsenault]

I think there's a great opportunity to work more collaboratively. In our two projects that we're doing, we're promoting federal projects and putting money in. The partnerships are there. In the last five to six years, I've seen a difference within the Government of New Brunswick in the collaboration between departments, but also at the federal level and making those connections. It's hard to crack sometimes, to find that right person who is the champion for that program, so that you can connect and start to build those partnerships.

For example, I got an email yesterday that I was invited to Service Canada to talk to them on behalf of New Brunswick about ESIC and what we do and how we could actually partner and share and promote each other's programs. So there is that opportunity. People want to do it. It's sometimes just a matter of finding that right person or that right lead. Sometimes it takes a long time, but it is there because the programs are parallel. If you don't file your income tax, you don't get your benefit program. It's as simple as that, federal or provincial. The partnership opportunities are there, yes, definitely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Please be very brief.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Okay. I'll save Kit Hickey for the next round.

There's a problem, obviously, that people aren't getting that. I don't know whose fault that is, if it's not marketed properly or if it's not out there properly. I shared that on Facebook this week. There were hundreds of comments and hundreds of shares by people who just didn't know. What vehicles are you using to get that message out to people?

[Althea Arsenault]

We have a partnership. We have Facebook now, we have Twitter, we have posters, and we're doing bus ads. We do it with all our 12 community inclusion networks. When you go and file your taxes, you're also going to learn about the Canada learning bond. We're now doing super clinics that are going to include the CRA, Service Canada, ESIC, and other federal and provincial government programs.

A lot of low-income people don't believe that the federal government will give them free money, that it will give them $2,000. They don't believe it, so they don't bother to do it. It's marketing, it's communication, but it has to be done together. There are also roadblocks as to how that program was initially set up. They had to go to a bank, which is very scary for low-income individuals. Then they had to go get a social insurance number. They asked why they needed their two-year-old to get a social insurance number. Then they still didn't believe the feds were going to give them $2,000 in free money. Some of those barriers are now gone; because of SmartSAVER this registration is all online now.

It's about realizing that there have been roadblocks built and trying to address those roadblocks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you so much.

For six minutes we'll go to MP Sweet.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Studies in the United States and in Canada clearly show that, first, the gap between rich and poor is growing, and second, there is a housing crisis all across the country.

If we want to fight and defeat poverty, as some have said, we need to address social, co-operative, and affordable housing. Just now, we were told that the waiting list for regional housing in Saint John is about 1,000 people.

How many social or co-operative housing units should we build so that everyone has affordable, safe and adequate housing?

[Kit Hickey]

Although the regional waiting list may be 1,000 people, we know that there are approx 2,000 affordable housing units here in the city, which is a combination of public, non-profit, and co-operative housing. In addition to that, we know the need is not being met. I don't have the latest local stats for folks in need of affordable housing, but provincially it's over 30,000—a need that has not moved in the past 15 years at the very least.

The number of those in receipt of income assistance is in excess of 7,000, and this is just income assistance; it doesn't include the working poor or people in receipt of employment insurance or seniors in receipt of CPP.

We know there's a huge gap there. I guess that probably gives us a better idea of the number of affordable housing units that are urgently needed in the city.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

So we would need 6,000 units? I am not sure about the number needed.

[Kit Hickey]

We have 2,000, so it would be approximately 5,000.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Okay.

Earlier, you mentioned the fact that long-term agreements coming to an end causes a problem and that more and more housing subsidies have disappeared. Those subsidies are important in overcoming poverty. Those who do not have to pay more than 30% of their income for housing can buy food and perhaps also a bike for their child or a dryer for the house.

What happens with the people who are about to lose their housing subsidy? What will happen to them when they do lose the subsidy?

[Kit Hickey]

New Brunswick has been working on ensuring that it doesn't happen, that the affordable housing stock is not lost by the sector. The amalgamation of the housing co-op here in Saint John will go a long way to protecting the affordability so that people are not forced to move out of the affordable housing stock that they may have lived in for many years. The reality is, though, that unless something happens, unless there is a program in place—a rent supplement program, or the affordability is protected—people will be losing affordable housing.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

If I understand correctly, the provincial government has picked up the funding of social housing, which was once done by the federal government. That is also what is happening in other provinces.

I think you have succeeded in handling the issue here in New Brunswick by amalgamating the co-operatives. However, in some places, there are housing suppliers, such as co-operatives, that prefer to rent their affordable housing to those who do not need a subsidy, given that those suppliers do not know exactly what is going to be happening two years down the road. Last year, the budget allocated $30 million over two years. As the co-operatives do not know exactly what will be happening two years later, some decide to rent their units to people who do not need the subsidy. So affordable housing units are lost. Did you solve that problem by forming a co-operative of co-operatives?

[Kit Hickey]

We feel that we've gone a long way to ensuring security of tenure for a certain percentage of the housing co-operative. It has been housing for mixed-income families and single seniors. We want to ensure the health of the community by remaining mixed income.

One of the things we are looking at doing as well, within the non-profit sector, for those who are 100% subsidized, is move to that model. It's a model that works extremely well, but if we are to ensure the success, we have to add additional affordable housing units to our stock.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

That's time. You timed that perfectly.

We'll move over to Monsieur Robillard for six minutes.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Employment and Social Development Canada funds the “housing first” program, which integrates housing needs with other support and assistance services for the homeless, including mental health services and counselling for drug addiction.

In your view, is the “housing first” program succeeding in meeting the needs of homeless people suffering from mental health or drug addiction problems? If so, what explains that success?

[Kit Hickey]

I think what explains the success of the program is that fundamentally that is one of our most basic needs—housing first. Once we have somebody safely, securely, affordably housed, then everything else can begin.

With the housing first model, it is housing first, and then ensuring that the services necessary to keep somebody housed are there and available to the participant in the program.