Human Resources Committee on Feb. 16th, 2017

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I know that in Saint John, on September 2, the Premier of New Brunswick was in town, and we announced another $56.8 million to be invested in affordable housing. Obviously, that was a provincial announcement. It was more funding on top of the prior agreement, which I think was for $40 million over five years. This was another $56 million over two years.

Again, given your model in Medicine Hat, how do you advocate? I assume that you had an announcement about investment in affordable housing also. That money trickled down to Medicine Hat. Is that correct?

[Celina Symmonds]

Yes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

How do you advocate for that money? How do you make sure that your priorities as a city are being met through the province?

Obviously, my frustration in Saint John was that when the money was announced, I had four or five different groups all wanting to do an affordable housing project. How do you make sure that you're aligned here so that the money goes to the right one and has the biggest impact?

[Celina Symmonds]

I think we're very lucky in Medicine Hat. We have a very strong housing society that we work through. Essentially, we allow our community to decide that through the housing society. There isn't a lot of conflict about where the money goes. When it comes to Medicine Hat, it goes to the housing society and they develop their affordable housing.

As Mayor Clugston said, we are always shovel-ready, always ready to go, and if the money's available we're able to take it right away. We also have a coordinated system of housing. A “housing first” perspective means one centralized intake, and that includes when we build our affordable housing.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Again, to Ms. Desjarlais-deKlerk and Ms. Henning, the numbers in poverty, in particular child poverty, really haven't moved. The needle hasn't moved in years across the country, particularly in my region. Have the numbers moved here in this community? Have they gotten better, worse, or are they same, and why?

[Dr. Kristen Desjarlais-deKlerk]

I honestly don't know the extent of child poverty in Medicine Hat.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Do you have any thoughts as to why the numbers in poverty aren't moving?

[Dr. Kristen Desjarlais-deKlerk]

Well, it's the same.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

That being said, I want some insight from you as to why, in your opinion, those numbers haven't moved.

[Dr. Kristen Desjarlais-deKlerk]

Honestly, there's been incredible community investment around here. I got to hear the end of the last panel and they talked about these quarterbacks. I think there is incredible will in this community to see poverty reduced and homelessness resolved.

I'm a Calgarian. I've only been in Medicine Hat for a year. Medicine Hat is an incredible analogy because the social trust is so high. I'm a sociologist, and where there's high social trust, it's good for everyone. Social trust here is incredibly high. We see that in how each of these organizations work together, and the competition isn't the same. They are committed to resolving these social issues. They are understanding that we need an entire system that works.

In Medicine Hat, there is this incredible buy-in across the board that we are capable of doing this, that we are capable of eliminating poverty. We eliminated homelessness, and now we are moving forward.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

MP Vecchio, please.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thanks to everybody for coming out today.

I'm going to start with Dianne and Jeannette regarding the Immigrant Access Fund.

Obviously, when I look at the measurements of this, we're looking at 97% to 98% of payback. It is a way of collecting data as well so that we know that people are going forward. I heard some of the obstacles regarding this delay. You put in an application in August and you're still waiting. There could be issues there, but what are some of the other barriers?

We've talked about the provincially regulated bodies. In the province of Ontario I know we have had issues with the medical association for doctors, and things of that sort. What are some of the issues and how do you think we can solve those issues?

[Vanessa Desa]

Just in terms of the government level, one of the issues we found, for instance, is that when people who receive social assistance come to us for a loan, depending on which province, and depending on their social assistance officer, they are at risk of having their social assistance cut off. That's a systemic obstacle, when people are trying to get out of poverty, that prevents them from taking that step forward.

Another issue that we're starting to see more and more of these days is that a lot of the bridging programs had paid internships built into them that gave people the opportunity to work in the field, make those connections. Recently, we're starting to see the move towards unpaid internships for pharmacists and physiotherapists. Most immigrants who are trying to go through the accreditation process are trying to maintain survival jobs because they need to put food on the table. If you're living on the verge of poverty and all of a sudden you have to leave your part-time job because you have to go full time for an internship where you're not getting paid, you can't do that. We need to find some creative ways and solutions to address that, whether it's funding for internships or whatever. That's another hurdle.

When it comes to regulatory bodies, I think it's that the voices of the applicants are not at the table. Those barriers are there and they're just not being heard.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I just want to also ask about the uptake. It seems to have extreme success where there's the uptake. I have done many applications in past years, but is there a way of collecting the data to know how many doctors, lawyers, accountants, and nurses are out there and not accessing this fund? Is there a way that we could market it better?

We're looking at poverty, and yesterday we dealt with a lot of indigenous...and we are hearing it once again today. We deal with generational poverty, but we're also bringing in this other factor of new refugees and new citizens. How is it that we can market it to make sure that we're helping out those people and giving them the best steps forward?

[Vanessa Desa]

I will start and Dianne can add.

Marketing has been one of our challenges. We have a huge impact for a very small organization and getting out our word across Canada has been a challenge. That's where we're looking to partner with government, with accreditation bodies, to help us get that word out.

The other thing we're seeing start to happen is that we're partnering with the organizations that are doing the information sessions pre-arrival, so immigrants, even before they arrive in Canada, are starting to be more aware of the hurdles they are going to face and looking to where they can get help. We're one of those places.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

That could also be a part of the application. You know that somebody's applying, and you're asking what their occupation is on page 1. We can mine the data from that and make sure that we're creating those links.

Thank you very much for your answers.

I want to move over to the City of Medicine Hat. We talked about basic annual income. You did touch on that. It is a very sexy term right now. Many Canadians are hearing about it. I was really happy to hear that you recognize that there are different models for basic annual income. Could you just explain a bit more? Because often I have heard, “We want basic annual income but do not to take away any of the other programs.”

Can you tell me what you see as this vision?

[Celina Symmonds]

Sure. I'll just qualify this that this is a personal opinion.

I believe that you would have to dismantle all the other systems to make this work, to cash out. As far as what the cost would be, we would have to see all those other bureaucracies dismantled because that's where the money will come from to fund the basic minimum income.

For example, I look at AISH in Alberta, which is a fantastic program. However, to qualify for it people with major mental health disorders are trying to fill out paperwork that I, myself, have a hard time getting through. If we looked at dealing with that program and having it not be a reality and instead look to a basic minimum income for all Canadians on a sliding scale, I think we could see some success in poverty reduction.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thanks very much.

It's not that I'm not supportive of basic annual income. It's just that we come at it from different ways. Sometimes people react very negatively, but I'll be honest, I like your idea.

Do we have an idea of what the costs to the taxpayer would be of dismantling it? We are going to be amalgamating, and they are all going to be under one roof instead of having all of these different pockets.

[Celina Symmonds]

I don't know the exact cost for sure but I sit on a committee that is advocating for this so I can certainly get you the information.

Short term, you're going to see an increased cost by bringing in a basic minimum income but I think long term you're going to see results that will echo what we've seen when we do wraparound services for housing first. We know from housing first, it costs $130,000 to keep someone homeless and $30,000 to house them. Those taxes come down from that. I think there are some real financial benefits to basic minimum income if it's done correctly. If it's not done correctly, there aren't.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

By the way I am working on a big project on that, trying to have it costed. It's an extreme program.

[Celina Symmonds]

The information is out there for sure and I can send you what I have. I don't have the exact numbers on me but I do have some.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

That would be awesome. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

We're supposed to go to Anju Dhillon. We're going to run into some time constraints, so I'm going to limit you to three minutes if that's okay.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

That's perfect. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Back to IAF, would you say that not recognizing the credentials or professional experience of newcomers is damaging to the Canadian economy?