Human Resources Committee on Oct. 17th, 2017

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Yes, one way you can see it is that grandkids or kids are providing services to the senior or any person living in the house. My question is whether those persons can be compensated in some manner so that they have some sort of incentive to look after the sick person or senior.

[Irene Sheppard]

I think that's a slippery slope, and I am not sure how to address the question. We have, and I think every province has, personal, directed funding of programs, whereby you may be given money and then you figure out how to care for it, including hiring family members.

As a rule we don't do that with most of our seniors. Where do you draw the line between the daughter who's willing to do it without money and the daughter who wants money? When is it fair to do it? I don't know, but it's a policy question for discussion. I just don't have an opinion on how to make it fair.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Do you think it would be less of a burden on the medical facilities—hospitals and caregiving houses—if they are being provided the services inside the home?

[Irene Sheppard]

I agree it would be. I think, though, that you have to look at complementary services. Family members can become exhausted if they're doing everything. What makes sense for the health care system to do, then, and what makes sense for the family members? That's going to vary in every situation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Now we go over to MP Steven Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I also want to thank our witnesses for sharing their thoughts and findings on this very important issue.

My first questions go to Ms. Laveau of the AQDR.

I am fortunate in having a branch of the AQDR in Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis. The people there are doing a great job.

Ms. Laveau, the government has a minister responsible for youth, the Prime Minister himself. It also has a Minister of Families, the member of Parliament for Quebec City. Would it not be logical to have a minister for seniors, given that one Canadian in seven is a senior? Soon, it will be one Canadian in four.

[Nicole Laveau]

Of course. The AQDR has not taken an official position on the matter; I am expressing my personal opinion. We have talked about it among ourselves a little at some meetings and I think it would be interesting.

Some years ago in Quebec, a minister was responsible for seniors, and she did a very good job during the time she was in the position. Federally, there has to be a minister for seniors, especially since that client group will be increasing in the coming years, as you said. The needs of that client group have to be taken seriously.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

I ask the question because I have an example here. The chief actuary has revealed that, as a result of a decision by the Minister of Finance, Mr. Morneau, almost 243,000 seniors will be penalized.

I would like to go back to the guaranteed income supplement. Did you recommend a 15% increase in the guaranteed income supplement for the least well off seniors?

[Nicole Laveau]

Last year, there was an increase of 10% for seniors living alone. We are asking for an increase of 15% for the entire client group. Mr. Morneau will go about it as he sees fit, but it has to be fair for all seniors.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

He went in the opposite direction this summer when he decided to enhance the Canada pension plan by increasing contributions, which will deprive 243,000 seniors of the guaranteed income supplement in the coming years. Some seniors are already feeling the effects. This is $3 billion being taken out of seniors' pockets and put into the government's pockets. I imagine that excluding people in need from the guaranteed income supplement is not the direction you wanted the government to take.

[Nicole Laveau]

It is completely the opposite of what we are asking for. We are asking for all seniors to be able to access income at the equivalent of the poverty line. With old age security and the guaranteed income supplement, we are still far from that. According to the data we have, the gap is quite significant.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Does the AQDR have a position on increasing the retirement age?

Mr. Veall mentioned that it would be a good idea to keep seniors active for longer. We could increase the age of eligibility for the Canada pension plan while keeping the age at 65 for the guaranteed income supplement.

What does the AQDR think about giving seniors the opportunity to stay in the workforce for longer?

[Nicole Laveau]

In a previous brief that we submitted to the Government of Quebec on this issue, we said that we were in favour of the life income fund, or LIF, being available to seniors starting at age 65. However, it is always possible for people to postpone it to 66 or 67, if they wish to do so, and if their financial situation allows. At very least, those who are 65 and who were perhaps in financial difficulty during the previous years must be able to access those benefits.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

I would like to go back to the tax measures.

On the Hill, there is a lot of talk about the famous Morneau tax, and about tax reform. It could be said that undesirable effects are being discovered each day, especially for retiring seniors who own businesses and who have not paid into the Canadian Pension Plan, thinking that they could retire using the dividends from their own businesses. Now we hear that their tax rate will be going up by 700%.

Have you had the time to look at the negative effects of the Morneau tax on seniors?

[Nicole Laveau]

We have not focused on that problem, but we could do so later. I have to say that our clients are not necessarily the richest. They are more likely to be vulnerable.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Now for three minutes we go to MP Rachel Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm going to come back to StatsCan.

Can you confirm that poverty rates will increase rather than decrease into the future? I ask because OAS and GIS benefits are indexed to the consumer price index.

[Andrew Heisz]

Perhaps I could try to provide some context around this.

Statistics Canada doesn't have statistics for poverty. It has statistics for low income. We produce three different measures of low income, and they each have different perspectives on what it means to be in low income.

The ones that were presented to you today by Professor Veall and by Sébastien were relative low-income rates. The idea there is that low-income thresholds are indexed to the median standard of living of the population.

The relevant question, then, is whether or not the median standard of living of the population rises or falls relative to prices. Arithmetically, if the median income of the population were to increase faster than prices and OAS were only indexed to prices, then OAS would represent a smaller portion of the median. If, however, the median were to rise more slowly, then the OAS could increase relative to the median.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Another question I have is how, in the data you're collecting, you are able to compare between urban and rural centres for seniors and...I'm going to use poverty; you translate it into your own language.

[Andrew Heisz]

That's understandable. Many people do that.

For urban and rural, we have different perspectives on the low-income measures. The measure we described to you today doesn't discriminate between urban and rural. It provides a single national threshold against which everyone is compared. For that reason, one might want to focus a little more on the trends, because you might be unsatisfied with where the threshold is placed for different population groups, but the trends should tell the story regardless of what the height of that threshold is.

We have other thresholds as well. For example, we have the market basket measure of low income, which is available for more rural populations. Analysts who are interested in looking at the differences among rural and urban populations can look at that measure, if they wish to.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

How about for indigenous communities, both off and on reserve? Do you have those...?

[Andrew Heisz]

Statistics Canada does not produce low-income rates for indigenous communities on reserve. All of our low-income rates are produced for the off-reserve population. We do produce statistics for the aboriginal persons off reserve.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you. I think that's my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

It is, and we have enough time, if it is desired by the committee, to do one more compressed round, each party receiving about four minutes for a question.

Is there a desire to do that?

Okay.

Madam Wong.