Human Resources Committee on Feb. 12th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, January 29, 2018, the committee is commencing consideration of Bill C-65, an act to amend the Canada Labour Code (harassment and violence), the Parliamentary Employment and Staff Relations Act and the Budget Implementation Act, 2017, No. 1.

Today the committee will hear from the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Labour for one hour, and then departmental officials for the second hour.

It's my pleasure to welcome the Honourable Patty Hajdu to this committee once again. Joining her today we have Lori Sterling, deputy minister, labour program.

Welcome, both of you.

Patty, the floor is yours.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Minister of Employment]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, I am proud to be here with you today to speak to Bill C-65.

This bill aims to address and ultimately eliminate harassment and violence, including sexual harassment and sexual violence, in federally regulated workplaces.

Bill C-65 is a reflection of our government's commitment to gender equality. Women simply can't get ahead and have opportunities equal to men's in workplaces where they experience harassment or sexual violence and where this behaviour is tolerated. This bill will provide greater protections to Canadians in federally regulated workplaces, including Parliament Hill and political staff, for the very first time in our history.

Harassment and sexual violence are unfortunately not new behaviours, and while recent reports of these unacceptable behaviours have captured our attention, it's been happening for far too long, and it is definitely time to take action. Harassment and sexual violence thrive in places where we see distinct power imbalances, especially here on Parliament Hill, and that creates a culture where victims of harassment or sexual violence don't feel comfortable bringing their complaints forward. As it stands right now, victims often don't have suitable options for making their complaints heard, and they also don't have options for resolving what are often very serious and traumatic incidents.

Like many of you here today, I have heard about heartbreaking experiences from many people who feel that their complaints will never be heard, that they will not be taken seriously, or that their issue won't be resolved.

When Canadians face harassment and violence at work, whether it's bullying, threats, physical assault, or mental abuse, the effects are detrimental for those employees, of course, but they are also detrimental for employers. People who experience harassment or violence often have higher rates of absenteeism, while employers see a greater staff turnover and, of course, a loss of productivity, so ensuring Canadian workplaces are safe and healthy is really a win-win for employees and employers alike.

That's why I was so proud to see my colleagues in the House take a united stand and unanimously send Bill C-65 to this committee.

I know that members of this committee agree that this is an issue that crosses party lines and that these behaviours have gone unchecked for far too long. Bill C-65 proposes amending existing provisions in the Canada Labour Code by replacing the patchwork of laws and policies that address these issues within the federal jurisdiction and putting into place one comprehensive approach that takes the full spectrum of harassment and violence into consideration.

It would expand these policies to cover, for the first time in the history of our country, as I've said, parliamentary workplaces such as the Senate, the Library of Parliament, and the House of Commons, including political staff on Parliament Hill.

Our framework aims to prevent incidents of harassment and violence from occurring, to respond effectively to those incidents when they do occur, and to support victims and survivors in the process.

I want to take a moment to outline the process for a complaint to be brought forward and dealt with in parliamentary and non-parliamentary workplaces. I want to be very clear that a complaint can be made to the Department of Labour at any time if a complainant doesn't feel that the process is being followed.

First, the employer must attempt to resolve the incident when a complaint is made. This can be done in various ways, including mediation, if the parties agree. If the incident cannot be resolved, a competent person will investigate and complete a report, with recommendations. If there is still non-compliance—for example, the employer doesn't implement the recommendations made by the competent person—there are two processes that follow, one for non-parliamentary employers and employees, and one for parliamentary employers and employees.

If an employee in a non-parliamentary workplace still believes that his or her employer is non-compliant after the investigation is complete, the employee can complain to the labour program. The labour program will initiate an investigation of whether or not the process laid out in the code has been followed. If the labour program finds that the employer is contravening the code, compliance will be sought through the use of compliance and enforcement tools that are available in the Canada Labour Code. We would first seek voluntary compliance, and then if it's not successful, there are a number of compliance and enforcement tools available that include publicly naming employers who are found to be non-compliant.

Similarly, if an employee in a parliamentary workplace still believes that his or her employer is non-compliant with the code after the investigation is completed, the employee can complain to the labour program. The labour program will initiate an investigation of whether or not the process has been followed. Then the Speaker of the House will be notified when there is an investigation. If the labour program finds that the employer is contravening the code, we will first seek voluntary compliance by the employer. If that's not successful, I, as the minister, will issue a direction to the employer to comply and will notify the Speaker. He or she may intervene. If there is still non-compliance and the direction has not been appealed, the direction, including naming the employer, will be tabled in the House of Commons.

For both parliamentary and non-parliamentary employers and employees, there is an opportunity to appeal directions from the labour program with independent boards.

Our government has been clear that harassment and violence will not be tolerated. The Prime Minister has shown that he is not afraid to take action when needed.

Also, the House sent a strong message to all Canadians in February with its unanimous support of this bill at second reading.

Now the time for inaction is indeed over. Bill C-65 will ensure that workers in federally regulated sectors, including on Parliament Hill, finally have the protections they need, and it will ensure that those who are in vulnerable positions will have a voice. Everyone deserves to work in a safe workplace, and they deserve to live free from harassment and violence.

I'm very much looking forward to hearing the committee's views on how we can strengthen the legislation. Ideas were brought forward during the debate, and I look forward to discussing these further with all of you.

We know that the problem is far too big for us to solve with a bill. All Canadians will have to work together to change the culture that tolerates harassment and violence in the workplace.

By discussing this legislation, we are sending a strong message to all Canadians that indeed time is up. These behaviours need to stop. We're taking important steps to eliminate these behaviours in all federally regulated workplaces and right here on Parliament Hill.

I want to thank my colleagues, from all parties, for supporting this important legislation so far.

This committee has an incredibly important role in examining this legislation. You have an opportunity to effect real change and to send a strong message to all Canadians that harassment and sexual violence are unacceptable and will not be tolerated any longer.

I look forward to working with all of you to ensure the timely passage of Bill C-65.

Merci.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Before we move on, I want to take a moment to welcome a few additions to our committee—MP Trudel, MP Harder, MP Dabrusin, and MP Damoff. Thank you for joining us. We're looking forward to working with all of you throughout this study.

We will go to questions. First up is MP Blaney, for six minutes.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the committee, Minister.

I would point out not only that the official opposition supported Bill C-65 in the House, but also that the parties agreed to an intensive study of the bill to help fast-track it. We believe this is a necessary bill whose time has come, as you mentioned in your remarks.

You said you wanted to send a strong message to all Canadians with this legislation. For those of us in the opposition, two things matter a great deal. First of all, it's important to ensure that the process is independent, especially as regards incidents or harassment on Parliament Hill. That's one element we'd like to examine with you this afternoon, as well as with the witnesses we hear from in the course of our study.

Minister, partisanship must have no place in this process. An alleged victim must not be forced to interact with their attacker or, in this case, with the minister in question. We need assurance from you on that, and by the same token, you will be reassuring Canadians about the benefits of the bill.

Second of all, will you show that the Department of Employment and Social Development has the expertise and capacity to investigate complaints and make recommendations when the process does not work?

Let's say, that, right now, someone feels they are experiencing harassment or violence in the workplace but fears going to their employer and having to go through mediation with their attacker. Can that person take their complaint directly to the Department of Employment and Social Development? Do you have the necessary resources to support the victim and make sure that the complaint is dealt with, today and after the bill is passed?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you for supporting the bill.

To the second part of your question, yes, we have the resources available. We're confident that we will have the resources available to provide support to employers to fully implement the legislation, in particular the support they will need to develop the policy and do the training and education that will be necessary in each workplace.

A big part of this is actually the prevention piece. The prevention piece is critical. Many workplaces haven't had these conversations about what is harassment, what is violence, what steps you take if you're not comfortable in your workplace, or, God forbid, if you're experiencing ongoing harassment. We will be focusing heavily on making sure that employers have the supports to put that prevention into place.

In terms of pursuing investigations, yes, we have the finances available for that as well, and we will be ensuring that we can do that work.

In terms of the other part of your question, if at any point a complainant feels the process is not being followed as laid out by the policy in their workplace and they feel their rights are being infringed upon in terms of the policy in their workplace, they can come forward to the ministry of labour. They can talk to the department about the fact that the process is not being followed and they don't feel they have a fair process. At that point we can assist them in making sure they receive the support they need.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Minister, how many complaints did you have in the current year, and how many do you expect once the legislation is put in place?

[Lori Sterling, Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Under the current legislation, we have very limited powers. We have no powers vis-à-vis the Hill, and vis-à-vis the private sector it's really about checking on the policies, so we receive very few complaints. However, under the new legislation, we do anticipate a significant increase in the number of complaints. As the minister has already said, we've made provision for resources—in fact, across the country—to be available to be able to respond in a timely way to these complaints.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Okay. With regard to the financial resources, those are not in the bill. Will that be in the budget and will you come back later, Minister? Can you elaborate on the resources that you will be providing?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

We're confident that we have the resources in place and that we'll be able to have the resources necessary to do full justice to the legislation.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Clearly, there will be a new task for the department, so you will need to adjust to this reality.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

We have provisions in place already to provide the training to the inspectors who will be responding to calls to the labour department for assistance. As I said, we are confident that we have the resources.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

I just have one last question, Minister. Can you reassure us again this afternoon that if someone doesn't want to go to either the employer or the mediation, he or she will be able to go directly to the department and won't be told, “Go back to your employer and follow the process”?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

If the person feels that the process is not being followed, he or she will have the ability at any stage in that process to come forward to the labour department to say that the process that the employer has put into place through the policies it'll be required to have is not being followed, and that he or she doesn't feel that the process is being followed. The labour department will determine whether or not the process has been followed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

Now we'll go to MP Fortier for six minutes.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Minister, for sharing your views with us today and, above all, for giving the committee the time to do this important work. I think we are all prepared to give it our all.

Are you open to recommendations or amendment proposals from the committee, if, in our opinion, they would strengthen the bill?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you for your question.

We, as I've said all along, are interested in hearing what the proposed amendments would be, as long as they have the goal of strengthening the legislation. We'll be carefully reviewing all recommendations and amendments to make sure that we reach that goal of strong legislation that ensures that our workplaces are free from harassment and sexual violence. If at any point we determine that an amendment would in any way weaken the rights of people in the workplace, or weaken the regime so that people have less support, then we, of course, would not be interested in that amendment.

I've said all along that the intent of this legislation is to make our workplaces free of harassment and sexual violence. If we've missed something, we want to hear about what would make the legislation stronger.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I read the bill, and I've listened to my opposition colleagues and fellow party members discussing it over the past few weeks. How will this legislation affect women, indigenous people, vulnerable individuals, and members of the LGBTQ community?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you. It's an excellent point that you raise.

It is often the most vulnerable in our workplaces who are subject to the experience of harassment and sexual violence. You've heard me speak about this, and many of you have spoken about it. It's that it is ultimately an issue of power. Frequently, people who are experiencing harassment and violence in their workplace are people who are among the most disempowered.

In our workplace, it's not hard to imagine who those folks are. They are many of the young staffers who sit around this room and, in fact, are with us today. They are often in situations that are very difficult for them. They have personally told me stories about circumstances in which they've felt very vulnerable.

This legislation will protect the most vulnerable. It is about setting up a fair playing field so that when someone experiences harassment or sexual violence in the workplace, there is a response, and that person can be confident that there will be a response.

In fact it's also, more broadly speaking, trying to lay the foundation for cultural change. I think when you look at the work of our Prime Minister, despite it many times being very politically difficult—calling out members who have violated our own party's code of conduct around behaviour, harassment, and sexual violence—you can see that it is not just legislation that will change a culture, but brave leadership. It's people being willing to stand up and say, “This is not okay in my workplace, and as a leader I'm going to take action and send that signal.”

To your point, it is the most vulnerable in our workplaces who will benefit the most, but I would also say that employers will benefit as well. I think when you look at the whole range of harassment and violence.... We've spent a lot of time talking about sexual harassment and sexual violence, but in fact, harassment can be bullying in the workplace. It can be yelling at employees repetitively. It can be asking employees to perform tasks that are not part of their employment contracts or their employment circumstances and that put them at risk of harm. I've heard many of those stories as well.

This is really about changing the culture, about learning how to treat each other with respect.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Could you talk about the consultations you conducted leading up to this legislation? How did you seek out the input you needed to develop and bring forward this bill?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Our government consulted a variety of stakeholders and members of the public on the issue of workplace harassment and violence.

We held the consultations between June of 2016 and March of 2017 through targeted teleconferences, in-person meetings, an online public consultation survey, and ministerial round tables with stakeholders and experts.

As we move through the regulatory development process with employer and employee organizations, there are going to be additional consultations to make sure that we have a full set of regulations that will work in all workplaces.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

A moment ago, we talked about your openness to suggestions that would strengthen the legislation. Has anyone raised the definitions issue to you? Will they be incorporated into the bill itself, to inform policy? How do you envision that right now? I think that's one of the issues we'll be discussing in the next few weeks.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Absolutely, I did hear the call, notably from the NDP, our colleagues across the way, about a concern that there weren't definitions.

I can tell you, as I've said publicly, that the intent behind not including definitions in the legislation was to reflect that harassment can evolve over time.

For example, even 15 years ago we would not have been able to consider cyberbullying. It was really an intent not to limit the legislation to specific forms of harassment and then having to open it up again when something new happened, but rather to deal with that through the regulations.

I'll be very interested to hear suggestions about how we make those definitions within the law, if that's the desire of the committee, in a way that is comprehensive and doesn't unintentionally eliminate the possibility of future types of harassment or violence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

MP Trudel, you have six minutes.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Minister, thank you for being here today to discuss Bill C-65. I have a number of questions for you.

First, the bill contains strong privacy protections for victims of harassment and violence. It also gives federally regulated employers and Parliament the ability to make use of a third party from the same workplace.

Now, I will fire off my questions. How are you going to manage and protect people's privacy when individuals in the same workplace will be the ones investigating the complaint to determine whether harassment or violence occurred, particularly in the case of sexual harassment or violence? Furthermore, how do you intend to protect victims?

Do victims have any recourse if their privacy is breached in the course of the investigation? If their personal information were exposed, would they have any recourse in that regard? Would individuals affected by workplace harassment or violence receive some sort of redress if their privacy were violated?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much.

You're absolutely right that privacy is a big part of the legislation. It's a factor that we heard over and over in terms of why people won't come forward. They feel that if they come forward and people know they've complained, there may be cases of reprisal. An employer may punish them, or their manager may punish them, or the person who is harassing them, often someone with more power, may in some way jeopardize their well-being, financial or otherwise.

That's why we've tried to capture this concept of privacy in the legislation. That's why we've made stringent criteria prohibiting workplace committees, policy committees, and health and safety representatives from participating in investigations of cases of harassment or violence: so that we limit the information and it's not spread throughout. Often a committee may have four, six, or eight people. The more people who have information, the more likely there may be a leak of that information.

It's also about making sure they don't have access to any information that could lead to the identification of persons involved in incidents of harassment and violence, such as their name, age, address, or religion. Furthermore, employers and the labour program have legal obligations not to disclose that personal information.

To the second part of your question, about what happens if that information is shared inappropriately, they're actually breaking the law, including the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act, the Department of Employment and Social Development Act, and the Privacy Act.

Finally, the Canada Industrial Relations Board, which is responsible for appeals, also has very strict policies on the release of private information. I suppose if private information is released, a complaint could come forward to the labour board, and the person could suffer penalties under those acts.

Maybe you'd like to speak to that, Lori.