Human Resources Committee on March 26th, 2018

[Beisan Zubi]

Building culture is really difficult, and I think it's even harder to change a culture once you have one that is as pervasive and as negative as the culture on the Hill was. One thing that really does change a culture is diversity and inclusion. I know that isn't exactly the easiest actionable item for you, but really, it is about including diverse voices, including diverse experiences, and making sure that the people who are making decisions and driving culture are coming from a variety of backgrounds and are cognizant of this.

Some people have asked me if I think eliminating alcohol from any on-the-Hill event would help. I don't. Alcohol is everywhere. It's off the Hill. It's in every industry. It's really not about that. It's about what kind of event you're inviting people to. What are the implications? If you're inviting people to be there and there are staff, are you making sure it's a professional environment? Are you making sure there are professional kinds of conversation, or is it just an excuse for people to get around a table and act badly?

It needs to be driven by people, and I think that requires empowering people to have that ability within the Hill culture, for example, creating culture champions who help in shaping events and these conversations in a way that includes more diverse voices. There are a lot of things you can do—

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Ms. Beaumont, I'm sorry, but I will have to interrupt you because time is short.

[Beisan Zubi]

Okay, I understand.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I want to make sure that Ms. Zubi can also answer this question.

[Hilary Beaumont]

Sorry, is that directed to me?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Sorry, Madam Beaumont, I mistook you both. Would you like to answer that question as well?

[Hilary Beaumont]

I would echo what Beisan said. I would add that I think the best prevention possible is training, as long as it's mandatory for all employees and employers. I believe Monsieur Parent said that he was able to get three hours of training. I don't think that's enough. There needs to be more time for training on an annual basis, and it needs to take employees and employers through the policies so they understand exactly how they work. You need to take them through the definition of harassment so they understand exactly what it is, and they need to understand what the consequences are if they are complicit in harassment or perpetrate it in any way.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you. I have another question, and I would like you to answer it quickly because I don't have much time left.

Ms. Beaumont, in your opinion—you talked about this in your presentation—what parliamentary authorities are in the best position to help members and senators develop policies on harassment and violence, as laid out in Bill C-65?

[Hilary Beaumont]

I'm not sure, to be honest, what specifically you mean.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

You mentioned earlier that harassment can't be reported directly to the MP. Who would be would be the third party that you mentioned victims could report to?

[Hilary Beaumont]

I guess the third party would have to be an independent party outside of the Hill. I understand there are independent consultants who can be brought in response to formal complaints, but I think they should be brought in for informal complaints as well. There should be a third party who is external to the Hill, does not work on the Hill, who could be brought in to keep politics out of the equation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you very much.

[Beisan Zubi]

I would agree that I probably would have been more likely to go a third party who was impartial and at arm's length than to report to anybody internal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

Now for six minutes, MP Trudel, please.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your testimony.

My first question is about the investigation you submitted, Ms. Beaumont. You mentioned several elements in your statement, and I would like to hear you talk about the complaint process.

In addition, when answering a question earlier, you said that the complaint should not be addressed directly to the member in question. I would like you to elaborate on that, as well as on another aspect that seems important to me that was mentioned several times—the confidentiality survivors are entitled to.

[Hilary Beaumont]

My understanding—and I think Beisan could also answer this—is that if an employee is reporting directly to their MP, they might feel intimidated doing that, especially if they're on probation. The MP could also be the harasser, so it might not be ideal for them to report to the MP. Also, there are political reasons that an employee might not want to report to the MP. For example, if the harassment is coming from their own party or another party, reasons of party loyalty and hyperpartisanship could make the employee feel too intimidated to report. Again, I believe there should be a completely independent third party to report to.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is for you, Ms. Zubi. You were an employee on the Hill, and you talked a lot about supervision at events.

I would like you to tell us more about that. Should we regulate events on the Hill more, as well as the arrival of lobbyists or various individuals from across Canada?

[Beisan Zubi]

This might sound silly, but making sure that food is being served, and not just alcohol, might help. It's generally seen as a normal thing to do, but a lot of times it's a sanctioned event and it's quite alcoholic. I think that's good party planning.

Many times I would walk into a room and it would be filled with a lot of older men. I just need you to understand how intimidating and unwelcoming an environment that is for women. You also feel on edge and like you are dealing with something on all sides. I think it's about making sure that invitations to these events go to a wide list of people so you get a diverse group of people in that space. I think that really does require having a diverse group of employees to attend these events. Having a bit more of an open environment, maybe not having events in dark rooms, would help. I think generally speaking that people are able in other industries to have events.

You really do need to talk about the way that young women specifically are treated on the Hill, as objects that are totally usable. That, to me, is not about the event. It's not about anything other than the fact that they are operating in unique situations where they are very junior in a lot of situations, where they are dealing with people who have been around for a long time. Just empowering young women and making them feel like they can actually walk into those rooms and that it will be okay, I think, would go a long way towards actually getting more diversity and and getting more women to show up at these events without being scared of what might happen.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

My next question is once again for you, Ms. Zubi, and it follows up on what you just talked about.

Do you think it would be important, in addition to mandatory training for all staff on the Hill, for people who are in charge and aware of this issue to attend events, if only to ensure supervision in the case of an unfortunate event?

I would like to know what you think about this, since it could be part of the solution.

[Beisan Zubi]

I actually don't think that's a bad idea. I mentioned having this idea of a culture champion, people whose role in these social events is to make sure that people are safe, that people aren't getting over-served, or that if somebody looks uncomfortable, there is someone who can gently interject and say, ”Hi, how was your day?”, and to defuse these situations.

Right now the way it's been working on the Hill is that these have all been self-appointed. They have all been guardians of these events, but there is no assurance that they're going to show up to everything. Until at least something has changed and people feel better and safe, I don't think there's anything wrong with having some kind of a culture champion who represents the values of the workplace at all Hill-sanctioned events

It wouldn't really do much to address the events that take place outside of Parliament Hill, but it could be a really good start to shift the culture in a way that people are being more conscious about these actually being work events and that they are there because it's their job. They're not there for a boyfriend; they're there to do their work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

Now over to MP Dabrusin please.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you. I want to take a step back because I believe both of you talked about former employees.

Ms. Zubi, you spoke specifically about some of the thoughts you were having, after the fact, about the work environment you had worked in and had left.

Ms. Beaumont, I think you maybe had mentioned having interviewed former employees as well. The reason I mention this is that when I look at the legislation, it seems to cover current employees, but I don't believe it covers people who have left their place of employment. Do you think there would be any value in changing this so that former employees could also benefit from the new Bill C-65?

[Beisan Zubi]

I can start.

I have revisited the article I wrote for Vice a couple of times, but most of the perpetrators of that kind of behaviour are no longer employed on Parliament Hill either. I was thinking about that too and what I could say about it. When I went through it, the four-year turnover of an election cycle and the nature of political work makes the workforce pretty transient.

I don't know. What I think your main focus should be right now is just ensuring that people who are the Hill right now are safe. I want to make sure that the people, like the young women who really want to work in politics, I tell should go to work on the Hill are not being sent into a lion's den. That's what I think your focus should be on. I think the people who left politics are still working working through their experiences. I'm lucky because I have my career and other things, and I think we should really be focused on protecting the vulnerable right now.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

What both of you can't see—and I apologize—is the lights that are flashing, so if you hear some distraction in the background, that's what's happening. If I can check with you, Mr. Chair—