Human Resources Committee on May 11th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Lennox.

Now we will proceed with questions, beginning with Ms. Kusie, please, for six minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Ms. Hall and Ms. Lennox, for your very passionate testimonies.

Ms. Hall, I'll start with you.

Provincial governments have increased protections for seniors in long-term care homes throughout the pandemic by limiting visitors, providing staff with personal protective equipment and preventing employees from working at multiple homes. Ms. Lennox, I believe, just alluded to this, but in your opinion, should the federal government have intervened earlier so that these steps would have been taken earlier?

[Jodi Hall]

Thank you for the question.

I do think that there was an opportunity for greater collaboration among the levels of government. Some of the challenges that we have noted were exacerbated by the COVID-19 situation, but they are long-term systemic challenges.

Some of the things that were, for example, put forward by the Public Health Agency of Canada simply couldn't be done in many cases because of the shared living space that we have. When you have four-bed wards and very narrow hallways in some of the older buildings, it makes some of the infection control practices incredibly difficult.

Even with the implementation of one employee to one employer and asking everyone to wear masks as they provided care to residents when social distancing couldn't be maintained, access to PPE was a significant challenge for many homes across the country. Federal government assistance could have gone a long way to support that.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Building on that, Ms. Hall, should the federal government have provided greater assistance to ensure that all long-term care facilities had enough personal protective equipment at the start of the pandemic?

[Jodi Hall]

Yes, I do think that there were steps that could have been taken that would absolutely have helped, especially at the beginning of the pandemic.

Things have come a long way since the start of this, but at the beginning there were chronic shortages. There were a lot of unanswered questions. There were many questions around access—where to get it, how to purchase it and how to know about the correct quality of the product we needed and the training associated with it. The list goes on in regard to that.

Support from the federal government could have been extremely helpful in providing a much higher level of support to the homes, especially at the beginning of this outbreak.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Ms. Hall

Ms. Lennox, you touched upon the fact that seniors with low incomes and mental health conditions are significantly less likely to have access to critical supports, especially social supports. You mentioned that some supports they rely upon to get groceries, medications and other essential items have not been able to be delivered in this time of pandemic. What can the government do to ensure that these seniors are getting the supports they need?

[Marissa Lennox]

[Technical difficulty—Editor] Canada has been providing. It has a range of services that could be adapted for low income seniors. There are specifically two programs that I think could be provided that would support low-income seniors to remain independent in their homes and communities. These include the caregiver recognition benefit, which is a benefit that provides a monthly payment to an informal caregiver, whether that's a family member or a friend who supports that individual with daily personal care support. I know many people who have had to give up full-time employment in order to care for a family member.

The other one is the veterans independence program, which is essentially payments for home and health care services, as you know. I think those are important programs.

When we look at the financial security of seniors, we see that it has really been impacted by COVID-19, so the other thing CARP has advocated is an acceleration of the commitment by the federal government to increase OAS and the CPP survivor benefits for those who are most vulnerable.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

As you've mentioned, I know that for many seniors the cost of living has increased recently due to COVID-19, and the majority of seniors are especially vulnerable to these changes due to their fixed income. You did touch upon this, saying that it's not preferable, but we have put forward policy suggestions, and many seniors are asking the government to allow for a one-time tax exemption of up to a certain amount for seniors who need to withdraw certain amounts from their RRSPs and RRIFs. Would you suggest that the government do this so that seniors can adapt in some regard to the recent increases to their cost of living?

[Marissa Lennox]

I completely agree with this. This would impact people under the age of 71 whose RRSP hasn't converted to a RRIF, while eliminating the withholding tax on RRSP withdrawals. What we've said is to allow two years to repay that tax liability. I think that would go a long way towards supporting seniors who are struggling with liquidity at this time. I think it's an important measure, for sure.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Excellent.

I'll finish by asking the same question that I asked Ms. Hall: In your opinion, should the federal government have intervened earlier in long-term care facilities, so that steps that were taken later in the pandemic would have been taken earlier?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Give a short answer, please.

[Marissa Lennox]

I do. I acknowledge and appreciate the balancing act that the federal government has to respect with regard to its role in Canada's health system. However, in the context of a pandemic like COVID, when the Public Health Agency of Canada has such an important role to play in the coordination of a pan-Canadian response, I think it's reasonable that PHAC would work with provinces and territories to ensure things like an adequate supply of essential products. I think that's one way the federal government could have intervened.

Another thing we've learned is that most of the key products needed for this response are not manufactured in Canada. There was really no stockpiling of critical supplies to respond to any surge. If anything, going forward there's a role for the federal government and provincial governments to work together on a list of essential products and recommended volumes of supplies needed in the event of a surge caused by something like COVID. Had that been in place in advance, it would have allowed for a more agile response on the part of the provinces and might have minimized the need for the federal government to seek supplies internationally.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Lennox.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

We could talk more about the failure of the NESS, but that's another committee. Thank you both.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Kusie.

Next we have Mr. Housefather for six minutes, please.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I would like to thank both of the witnesses and their organizations for the incredible work they do. From the Liberal side I want to say to all of the victims of COVID-19 in the long-term care facilities and their families that we feel their pain.

My dad is turning 88 on Wednesday. He is in a long-term care facility here in Montreal because two years ago he had a series of falls and my mom could no longer care for him at home. Over the last nine weeks he has not seen his wife, his children or his grandchildren. He is just one person out of the many who are suffering in these facilities, in a way that we cannot even fathom. The families around them are suffering. The home that he's in has COVID-19. On his floor there are a dozen people affected. It's scary. It's scary for all of us.

I also want to thank the long-term care workers who have been doing an awesome job, despite being underpaid and overtaxed in this equation.

I want to mention as well that I come from the province of Quebec, and this is an area of provincial jurisdiction. While the federal government, and all governments, have a role to play in working with one another, it is clear we have to remember that this is primarily an area of provincial jurisdiction. That has to be recognized. The federal government then needs to step up when the provinces ask for help, and we have to help. Going forward, especially in a pandemic, Canadians don't care what level of government is constitutionally responsible. They just care that the work gets done.

Ms. Hall, briefly, do you believe there should be a committee study, provincially and federally working together, on how to improve matters in long-term care facilities across Canada, and then an accord between the federal government and the provincial and territorial governments whereby we provide money, and the provincial and territorial governments effect the standards we require in return for that money?

[Jodi Hall]

Certainly on behalf of CALTC, I would say that we have long stated that there needs to be engagement with the federal government and that work between the provinces and the federal government needs to greatly expand. As we've seen in some of the data I shared earlier, we're in the midst of a tremendous transition in the Canadian population.

We're becoming a much older demographic, and when we look to the circumstances of the individual provinces, I think it's quite fair to say that they have a significant challenge as it relates to funding their health care budgets appropriately, which are often taking up much of the provincial revenues available to them.

We see this as a shared responsibility between the federal government and the provincial governments, but also amongst the sector and long-term care representatives. I think it's a topic that all Canadians care about. Certainly, while I think it was always there, I think we're seeing that as this pandemic has advanced it has become a very central issue.

As to how that can play out, we're absolutely supportive of having a greater understanding and of working together. Because in each province there is a unique approach to long-term care, one of the challenges we have is to get much better access to shared data. Right now, there is not a centralized data approach, but there are opportunities to introduce that. Things like the management information system or the universal usage of an interRAI long-term care system that allows for assessment data to be comparable right across the board would help to inform investments, and there are other types of initiatives to better understand the standard of care that's being delivered.

I think that could be accomplished through a shared strategy between federal and provincial governments. As well, looking at things like a pan-Canadian strategy for health human resources could be critically important, and I think it's the federal government that could lead us through that.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

Again, respecting that this falls under provincial jurisdiction and the provinces have to work with us and agree, we cannot impose on provinces. I think this just needs to be understood constitutionally.

Mr. Chair, do I have more than two minutes left? Or do I have only two minutes?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You have a little over one minute.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Then I have to pass this on to Mr. Lauzon.

You have the floor, Mr. Lauzon.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Good evening, everyone.

Thank you for being here.

I will finish what Mr. Housefather started to say.

As parliamentary secretary, I represent seniors with the Government of Canada. Thank you very much for all the questions you have asked today.

In many communities, seniors are clearly struggling with isolation, caregiver access and financial security issues as a result of COVID-19. Today, we are all discussing ways to address this.

Two things concern me: mental health and the impact on women. While there are potential measures to address them, they are major challenges that add to problems that have been there for a very long time.

The question is for Ms. Lennox or Ms. Hall.

Do you have any suggestions on what we could do to improve the mental health of seniors and the specific issues facing women?

[Marissa Lennox]

I don't speak French fluently, so I didn't understand the question. Is there a translator who can support me with the specific question? I'm sorry about this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You should have—

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

I think you should have the translation already.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Hall, are you able to answer the question? We're actually out of time, so I need a short answer anyway.