Human Resources Committee on June 8th, 2020

[Robert Byers]

Yes. We haven't worked with Indigenous Services or anything like that. We've worked with another ministry and with CMHC.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Byers and Mr. Vis.

Next we'll go to Ms. Young, please, for six minutes.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to Mr. Morrison, Mr. Byers and Mr. Ross for appearing today.

First, I wanted to pass along my thanks through the three of you to all the front-line workers in the affordable housing sector, who are truly doing heroic work in supporting those living in our communities during this crisis. I wanted to mention that to start.

Mr. Ross, you mentioned in your presentation that during COVID rental arrears are manageable for housing co-operatives. I wanted to ask you about this because when the government introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, it was hoping to support those individuals and families who saw their income evaporate.

Have you seen a significant reduction in the number of people paying rent?

[Timothy Ross]

No, there have not been widespread reported cases of a significant number of people not paying rent. Our message to our members is that if you have the means to pay rent you should pay your rent or, as we say in co-op land, housing charges, because that is not only how you keep a roof over your own head, but that's how you keep a roof over your neighbours' heads within your co-op as well. So far, the reported levels of arrears remain manageable. By that I mean around less than 10%.

I think we need to study very closely who is falling behind and why, so that we can make sure they can access support to remain stably housed so that there's no housing loss due to COVID-19.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

Do you see the CERB playing a role in this during COVID?

[Timothy Ross]

I think this would require further study, but we don't have any firm way of correlating the manageable rental arrears in housing co-operatives and the availability of the CERB. That should be studied, I think, but anecdotally we are hearing that the CERB is allowing those with economic loss and job loss due to COVID-19 with the means to pay their housing charge and meet their other basic needs.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

That certainly helps. Thank you very much.

Mr. Byers, we have the N'Amerind Friendship Centre, so I'm familiar with the name “Namerind”.

You gave us a very personal account of a homeless, indigenous man in Regina. It was a tragic story, all too common. This committee was planning an in-depth study of this issue before the COVID-19 pandemic, an urban and rural indigenous housing strategy.

Can you tell us whether you believe this issue should remain our first post-pandemic priority, and why this issue is so critical?

[Robert Byers]

Thank you.

It's so important to us. Even sitting on the board of the Canadian Housing and Renewal Association—as I said, I chair the indigenous caucus—we've invested money and worked with CMHC to develop our for indigenous, by indigenous housing strategy. I believe we've presented it to the federal government, and it talks about a strategy that is specific to urban, rural and northern indigenous people.

It's different for us, and we need something that is specific to us.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

I hope, Mr. Byers, when we do have that study—and I certainly hope that study will be forthcoming—you'll be able to come back and be a witness during that testimony too. Thank you.

Mr. Morrison, if I could go to you briefly, you talked about some things. You didn't have much time to talk about what you were hoping for. I'll give you the rest of the time to tell us more about what you would like.

[Jeff Morrison]

The study your committee had proposed on urban, rural and northern is so crucial, to reinforce Robert's point, and our indigenous caucus looks forward to working with you on that. As Robert mentioned, we have a lot of data, a lot of information, to provide.

I want to reiterate a point I made at the end of my comments. In terms of the post-pandemic world as it relates to affordable housing, probably the most important recommendation we're putting forth has to do with the notion of a federal acquisitions program. In a very sad way, perhaps the only population who may be sad to see this pandemic end is in fact the homeless population because, as you know, many municipalities and housing providers have currently acquired properties on a very short-term basis to provide housing for homeless people. The problem is that when the pandemic is over, those arrangements will also be over, meaning those homeless people will be back out on the street.

If we could put it in place to allow municipalities and providers to acquire those properties on a long-term basis to complement the other measures already in the national housing strategy, then we could actually turn a very sad and tragic situation, this pandemic, into an opportunity to put a real dent in homelessness, while at the same time providing safe and affordable housing to those who really need it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Morrison.

Thank you, Ms. Young.

Ms. Chabot, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, respected witnesses. Thank you for joining us.

Mr. Morrison, I will also give you an opportunity to finish your answer. As you know—and we see this regularly when it is a matter of the national housing strategy—the bilateral agreement with Quebec has still not materialized. That is the only province still without an agreement, while the needs are major. They were major before COVID-19 and still are. We are here talking about affordable and safe social housing.

According to the message you sent us, you seem to think it is important to finalize the agreement. Could you tell us why?

[Jeff Morrison]

Yes, absolutely. There is no doubt about it.

As you know, Quebec is the only province that has still not signed an agreement with the federal government to implement national housing strategy measures.

If that's okay with you, I will continue in English.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Of course.

[Jeff Morrison]

We actually did have a conversation with Minister Hussen, perhaps two weeks ago now, in which we reiterated the importance of finalizing an agreement with the Government of Quebec to implement the measures.

As the only jurisdiction that has not signed—and it has been two and a half years since we've had the strategy—Quebec is missing out on the investments targeted for affordable housing in the province of Quebec. The people, the tenants within Quebec, are not able to benefit from that agreement.

We understand that over the weekend CMHC put forth a new offer to the Government of Quebec responding to some of its concerns, so we hope the Government of Quebec will seriously entertain that and that we can get an agreement signed. Two and a half years to come up with an agreement is simply too long. We need those investments today.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Do you think that, if the agreement had been concluded three years ago, it may have changed things?

I remind you that conditions in Quebec are fairly simple. A witness told us earlier that we have already developed an entire ecosystem.

I think Quebec is entitled to its fair share of that agreement, while respecting its reality and its own ecosystem in this area.

Do you think things would have been improved had the agreement been concluded three years ago?

[Jeff Morrison]

It's difficult to say whether the situation, especially during the pandemic, would have been better had Quebec signed sooner. It does take some time for some of these policies and for properties to be built and put in place. However, since other jurisdictions have signed their agreements on the national housing strategy, we have seen literally billions of dollars flow to other provinces and other housing providers to repair and renew existing housing units, to build new units and to continue the rental subsidies.

Had Quebec signed a year or two years ago, we definitely could have seen a better situation for the province of Quebec than we are seeing at present, but history is what it is. Hopefully the government will sign soon and we can get moving on those investments.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

We will hope that the federal government will remove its restrictions, and that Quebec will become a participant.

My last question is for Mr. Ross.

I really care about affordable housing. As you said, affordable housing and cooperatives are not really affordable or safe. We know that this can make a big difference, as many women live in that type of housing. Safety is a major issue.

You said earlier that, when it came to home support, an increase in that kind of housing was a winning option. Can you tell us more about what cooperatives offer?

[Timothy Ross]

Thank you for the question.

Generally you are absolutely correct. Community not-for-profit and co-operative housing that gets developed does need to be affordable in order to meet the needs of community. Given how expensive, competitive and difficult it is to operate and develop housing in our highly financialized investment- and profit-driven housing system across the country, there needs to be a role for the federal and provincial governments to invest in the development or acquisition of new housing supply through favourable financing and through grants to make housing more affordable to operate.

As well, individuals need adequate income supports. If they're precarious workers, or if they have precarious health or don't have reliable labour participation, it is very difficult to meet their housing costs and the other costs associated with their day-to-day living. That is why income support programs need to be very broad, robust and sufficient to meet people's housing needs and other essential needs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Ross.

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Next we have Ms. Kwan for six minutes, please.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their presentations.

I'm going to first start with Mr. Ross, carrying on with the issue around co-op housing.

As you indicated, the federal government pretty well pulled out of the building of housing back in the 1990s, and included with that, of course, was co-op housing. The impact has been great. The government is engaging in the renewal of operating agreements, another realm of short-term renewal. What I hear from the co-op sector is that, as we keep on talking about renewal of agreements, we're not really talking about new stock, because we're just trying to stay afloat at this moment. I wonder if you can quickly comment about what we really need to do.

Would you support the federal government coming back with a co-op housing program similar to the one that was dismantled before? In terms of the renewal, would you have any recommendations in terms of the length of term, and associated with it, the requirements for the subsidies, for keeping up with the cost-of-living increases and so on?

[Timothy Ross]

With respect to the best path to create new, non-market supply of housing, including co-operatives, it would seem as though there are difficulties in accessing and generating new development opportunities through the federal co-investment fund, and I know that a lot of work has been under way to make that work more favourably for smaller non-profits and smaller co-ops. I know CMHC is now allowing for a portfolio approach to access that favourable financing and those grants.

However, we continue to advocate for a not-for-profit, non-market, co-op supply program through the federal government, ideally with the participation of provinces. It's very difficult and may not be reasonable to expect co-op and non-profit housing in Canada, which is a universe of just over 600,000 units, to compete with the whole private market when applying for these existing programs. A stand-alone program would certainly help with that.

To the second point, on renewal of agreements with co-ops and non-profits, what's really important and what must happen is that we need to separate income support from ongoing operations and management of buildings. Co-ops and non-profits in Canada are very well positioned to look after the buildings, but we need strong income support programs to help those who don't have enough income to pay an economic rent. Currently there are three programs on the table in the national housing strategy: the housing benefit, the federal community housing initiative and the Canada community housing initiative. They were all 10-year programs at the beginning of the strategy and now we're a few years into the strategy. Not all of them are up and running, so we really want to focus on getting those up and running.

Generally, longer-term, more permanent or stable rental assistance programs should be for more than a decade.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Ross. If you have additional recommendations on what needs to be done, could you submit them to the clerk's office?

I'm limited in time so I want to turn to Mr. Byers now. Thank you so much for your presentation and for highlighting the situation with urban, northern and remote indigenous communities.

In my own riding of Vancouver East here, we have a large homeless population, including urban indigenous folks. The national housing strategy, as you noted, does not actually focus on these sectors and that's a huge problem. For the $2 million you requested, have you asked the federal government for that funding?

[Robert Byers]

Actually I did. I sent a letter. Really it wasn't applying through any sort of a program. It was just an ask, because I think it will really transform the shelter system here in Regina. I think it's something that could be replicated across the country, because shelters aren't set up for something like this.

As I said in my presentation, they're usually set up dormitory style and if you've grown up or experienced the residential schools, it's horrible to go back to that. Most people would sooner sleep on the street than go back to it. A friend of mine and I took to the streets a few weeks ago to feed people, and that's what they talked about, sleeping outside.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you for that. In my own riding we actually have a group of indigenous people who are homeless, and in the dead of winter, desperate for housing, but at the same time, they were saying that they couldn't stay in a shelter. Why? Because it reminded them too much of the residential school experience and it was just too traumatic. They actually went outside.

They need housing developed by them, initiated by them to meet their needs, and not by someone else's definition of what is deemed to be appropriate, so I thank you for that.