Evidence of meeting #20 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crisis.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute
Yes, definitely. This is actually what I was trying to say. We need to go back to the EI program, but we need to improve the program to address the issues that it had even before the crisis.
Liberal
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for their presentation.
I'd like to turn to you, Dr. Mahboubi. In your presentation you referenced the issue around child care. One of the real problems for people in returning to work, I think, is the lack of child care. Even as it stands, as we re-enter, child care spaces are really only operating at half their capacity. For those with younger children, the spaces are simply not available. That's notwithstanding COVID. In fact, this was a problem even prior to COVID.
Do you think it's time for us to actually bring forward a national child care initiative so that we can support workers—and particularly women, I might add—to enter the workforce?
Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute
Certainly, this is something important to consider. The reason is that, during the crisis, women were hit harder in terms of job losses than other population groups, and usually child care responsibility is on the shoulders of the woman in the household. To make sure that women, or even parents in general, are able to go back to work placements where there is no child care option available or where child care options are limited, we need to think about how we can provide the other options, such as child care subsidies.
Right now, the provincial support that individuals can receive is just through licensed child care centres. To be able to provide more options for families, we need to increase the number of child care options, specifically because child care centres are not able to open easily and they have to follow a specific protocol, which is going to affect the number of spaces available for children in each centre. What I mean is that a family could receive a child care benefit or subsidy when they use other, alternative child care options that traditionally weren't considered as something that individuals would be eligible to receive that benefit or subsidy for. One of the—
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you. Maybe I can jump in here, because we actually do have a child tax benefit, and even then it does not actually address the child care problem.
In my own riding in Vancouver East, I regularly have constituents who are desperate. This is particularly the case with new parents who need to return to work—and this is pre-COVID—but cannot find a space. They cannot find a space. They cannot find a quality, affordable child care space for their children.
When you talk about these other options, the spaces need to be made available. To that end, doesn't the federal government need to be a real partner at the table in creating the spaces with the provinces and making them available so that people have a place to place their children and they know their children will be safe and taken care of while they're at work?
Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute
Collaboration between the federal and provincial governments is definitely needed to achieve that goal, but this is also something where provincial governments have to step in. They have to contribute. They have to support such an initiative.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Yes, thank goodness that in British Columbia we have a B.C. government that's more than ready and willing, and if we can have substantive investment from the federal government in creating a national child care initiative, we'd be more than interested in complying, because that is what we need to support the economy. By the way, the chambers of commerce have been calling for this for years and years now.
I'm going to now turn to Mr. Milloy.
Mr. Milloy, I was very intrigued by the fact that you wrote an article in the newspaper entitled, “Basic income makes sense, but that doesn't mean it will happen.” In that article you indicated that, even though it makes sense to proceed with this, the political environment might not be ready for it.
In the province of Ontario, in fact, there was a pilot program, the UBI pilot program, that was brought in, I think, by your government and that is being cancelled prematurely by the Doug Ford administration. Can you comment on that? What are your thoughts on the pilot program that was introduced by your government?
Director, Centre for Public Ethics, Martin Luther University College
Just for the record, I had retired at that point, but I was certainly supportive and intrigued when then Premier Wynne brought it forward.
Basic income is huge. It has a lot of political challenges to it. That was what I said in my article. I also think that we don't know what that kind.... First of all, we don't even know what basic income is. There are different definitions out there, but even with one of the more modest programs where those under a certain income level are receiving a minimum stipend, how is that going to work? For some people, intuitively you know, it's going to be a good thing. For others, perhaps intuitively, you don't know. Maybe it's not going to be a good thing, which is why I love the fact that Premier Wynne suggested that we have a substantive pilot—I believe that it was about 3,000 families and individuals who were on it—and then have a look at the data to tell the stories of these individuals.
I have to tell you, both from a political point of view and from a pure policy point of view, I think the outcome of that would have been wonderful in terms of a public policy debate. It would have really set the table, so it was just such a shame it was cancelled. It was a shame for the individuals who were part of that pilot program, but also a shame for all of us to not know how it would have worked. Perhaps there would have been kinks in the system that we would have been able to address, but I was quite disappointed with it because I was also minister of community and social services, and it makes sense. I see the challenges, and I think people have a right to say they want to know the facts and figures and how it would work, and as I say, even hear the stories.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
Thank you, Dr. Milloy.
Thank you, Ms. Kwan.
Next we're going to go to Ms. Kusie, please, for five minutes.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to both of our witnesses for being here today.
Mr. Milloy, your second point was about respecting provincial jurisdictions. I'm wondering if you were thinking of specific instances during the management of this pandemic where you feel that provincial jurisdictions weren't respected or should have been respected. Could you provide some specific examples that come to mind as you raised this point, as well as perhaps some recommendations for going forward?
Director, Centre for Public Ethics, Martin Luther University College
You know, when I expressed those opinions, they weren't so much based on the individual actions of the federal government as much as the mood out there, particularly in Ontario, where people were saying that the federal government needed to take leadership in long-term care.
We've seen the discussions that have been going on about having 10 guaranteed sick days, which is a great idea for provincial workers. Again, there's this momentum that's coming up that says that the federal government should be taking over all of this, and I've got to tell you, as a provincial minister, this isn't so much my being a constitutional purist.
I used to deal with the federal government on post-secondary education initiatives, and I can go on and on at length about them. We had the capacity and the knowledge. We knew exactly how to do it. We knew how to do it in a fair way. We knew the players, yet the federal government would often tell us that they were going to come up with their own federal program, which would duplicate a lot of what we'd done and would be slow and cumbersome.
When I look at some of the things like job training, which is primarily a provincial and territorial matter, I tell the federal government to just work with the provinces and let the provinces and territories take the lead.
I see this momentum that's out there, this political momentum that the federal government should sort of be redrawing society, and I say, “Amen, let's do it, let's have that debate”, but it's important to remember that the provinces and territories are in charge of so much of social policy—education, training and those key areas that are such a hot topic these days.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Thank you for that.
I'm going to go to your fourth point now, where you mentioned unchecked power in a minority government. Given that, I want to get your thoughts and opinion, especially as you were previously elected as a representative, on the fact that Parliament essentially will not be sitting this summer, outside of four meetings, with no opportunity to present opposition motions and no opportunity to present private members' business.
Do you see this having any negative effects on your evaluation of democracy and this “unchecked” power in a minority government, as you referred to it in point four of your initial comments?
Director, Centre for Public Ethics, Martin Luther University College
Sure. I mean, listen, I think we have to find a balance. We're in the middle of a global pandemic. There are all sorts of logistical reasons. At the same time, as someone who has lived and breathed this, I do see great value in having Parliament find a way to sit, to have the back and forth, and to have government being held accountable.
However, to go back to my fourth point, I think each side has to have that balance. The opposition has to recognize that this is a tough time and a lot of people are working in good faith, but I think the government has to recognize that it needs to be accountable. I would certainly like to see more sittings and more back and forth and just the cut and thrust of Parliament. That is so essential to our democracy. I have sympathy for the government's position, but I also recognize that some of the complaints from the opposition appear, to me at least, quite legitimate.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Thank you.
Finally, you are in a faith-based post-secondary environment. I have one in my riding as well. I want to ask you, as someone who has a position of high administration within a faith-based environment such as that institution, for your thoughts as to the Prime Minister participating in large gatherings while at the same time giving public safety advice that gatherings are not permitted, which many faith groups must abide by and did abide by.
Do you have any comments on that, please, in terms of the difference between what the highest level of leadership did compared with what was expected of those from specifically faith-based backgrounds?
Director, Centre for Public Ethics, Martin Luther University College
Well, I think I will be echoing what a lot of commentators said. I think the Prime Minister and a lot of political leaders were in a sense backed into the corner of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I can't remember if that's unparliamentary, Mr. Chair. I apologize.
The fact of the matter is that there is anger out there. There is concern. There is need for action. I think it's great that the Prime Minister was showing his support, but at the same time, there was the whole public health issue. He found that balance. Other politicians found that balance. Other politicians decided to stay away. I think it was an unbelievably difficult situation and I think we should respect both. I respect what the Prime Minister did. I will also respect those who said they wanted to stay away for personal health reasons and also to set an example.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
Thank you, Dr. Milloy, and thank you, Mrs. Kusie.
Next we'll go to Mr. Housefather, please, for five minutes.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Dr. Mahboubi and Dr. Milloy, for the important work you both have done and for coming before this committee.
Dr. Milloy, especially with respect to your fourth point, I completely agree that in these times, people don't care that we're from different parties. They want everybody to work together to find a solution to a crisis. We don't want gotcha moments. Government members shouldn't come to the committee just to defend everything the government did and opposition members shouldn't come just to attack everything the government did. We should be working together. So I thank you for saying that.
I want to address the workforce question. You mentioned in your first point that jobs will rapidly disappear. I imagine that the jobs that will be disappearing all the more quickly will be the jobs that were being driven away by technological change. That will be exacerbated by the pandemic. One of the areas you have great experience in is with respect to trades. While you now represent an academic institution, as we know—you know more than I do on this—a significant percentage of people in trades are retiring in the next 10 years. What would you advise the federal government and the provincial governments to do to promote the need for people to get into the trades?
Director, Centre for Public Ethics, Martin Luther University College
In the longer-term picture, it's always about working with very young people, elementary school and up, on the value of trades and telling them that these are good jobs. Oftentimes, many of these trades are very technological. They are skilled jobs, where you're making good pay, and you're making a difference.
In the shorter term, what we need.... I spoke about the second career program; I was proud of it. There were all sorts of hiccups and warts and all of that, but one of the things we learned is that you really need to have the employer, the training institution, and the laid-off worker really working closely together. In the second career program, we asked people to come forward and say, “Look, I want to be skilled in area X, and here is some evidence that some hiring is going on”. That evidence, as I recall, was a few job ads and things like that in the paper.
One of your colleagues asked about infrastructure programs and major construction programs. We need those employers saying, “We need the following trades. We need them now. The jobs are available.” When people get a better sense of what a trade involves, get a sense that there's a good paying job at the end, and there is a way in.... We have a post-secondary system that is so out of date that sometimes if you show up in October and say, “I want to be a plumber or a carpenter”, you may be told, depending on the institution, “Well, you have to come back in January”, or “You have to wait a year”, even though you came six weeks earlier. That's the sort of thing where it's nimble, everyone's working together, and I, as a laid-off individual can say, “Hey, you know what, here is a direct route. I don't have to bang my head against the wall and wait six months or go here or go there”, and it moves through.
It's a lot of work, but it's going to be a huge payoff. Certainly, the trades is one area where we can see great growth.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you very much.
Dr. Mahboubi, I want to thank you as well for your presentation.
I take it that you both agree that the CERB has been a very valuable program, that its rollout was quick and effective, in the sense that it reached a lot of people very quickly, but that as it gets extended more and more, we need to make changes to the program, and I took note of the suggestions you made.
I want to explore one issue with you that you didn't raise, the issue of immigration. I read a paper you wrote a couple of years ago saying that in order to compensate for retirements in Canada and the aging population, we would need to bring in approximately 1.4 million immigrants per year.
Can you talk about immigration, because we're about to have the Minister of Immigration back to this committee? What role do you see immigration playing in helping us get out of the recession or the job crisis that we're now in?
Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute
The crisis impacts the border specifically, and the impact on immigration has been huge. Canada is not able to meet its target levels for 2020, and we are not even sure about next year.
At the same time, immigration is necessary to address the challenges related to an aging population, and these are not going to stop. Just because we are facing a crisis, we shouldn't forget about the need to bring more people into the country. At the same time, regarding the need to address labour shortages, either through temporary foreign workers or permanent immigration, yes, we are facing a crisis, and the unemployment rate is high, but not all sectors are affected equally. There are still some sectors facing shortages of seasonal labour, which need to be addressed through immigration.
At the same time, generally crises affect immigrants more than non-immigrants in terms of job losses. Recent immigrants have had challenges in learning the languages because immigration support programs that provide language training to immigrants have stopped working time since the beginning of the crisis.
All of these things need to be considered. We still need immigrants to come to Canada to address the issues related to the aging population and labour shortages, but there will be some unemployed immigrants and some unemployed Canadians. We need to reallocate labour into different sectors and industries to be able to provide them with jobs. Also, there's a shift that has happened in the labour market because, right now, many employees may not want to go back to traditional workplace operations, so working from home may become more attractive in the near future, especially as you can work from any place. You can then support the economy from your home.
All of these matters are really important, not only immigration.
As for international students, they were such as valuable source of revenue for universities. Not only that, but for future immigration, we need international students because studies show that they have better labour market outcomes.
Right now, we've paused everything, so it's really important, as borders are starting to reopen, that we think about what type of immigrants we need. We need to look at our labour market, the issues we are facing, the types of labour and skills we need. Then make a link between the type of immigrants we need and the number. We need to bring more immigrants here. Definitely, this is something that we need.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
Thank you, Dr. Mahboubi, and thank you, Mr. Housefather. On behalf of the committee, I want to offer our sincere thanks for your very thoughtful, constructive and balanced presentations today. These were greatly appreciated and extremely helpful to our work. We appreciate your being with us. We hope you have a wonderful weekend.
Colleagues, please remain as we have one item of committee business that I'm hoping we can dispense with fairly quickly, and that is a budget that has been circulated by the clerk of the committee in respect of this study. Hopefully, you will have received it. This budget is for $7,100, and it is to cover the cost of dial-in phone lines and the headsets that you see worn by the witnesses. You will recall that when we started, we had untold problems with different configurations of microphones and speakers, so part of the budget is for the headsets that have been provided to witnesses and the rest is for dial-in phone lines that are required by our staff.
I can't move a motion, but I would be happy to entertain a motion for the adoption of the budget. If someone would please move it, then we can open it up for discussion, if any.
