Human Resources Committee on Aug. 17th, 2020

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

That's out of the restart program that we just recently shipped to.... It's federal money that's being distributed by the province to your organization.

[Susan McGee]

No, sorry; that was out of the initial announcement of the $157-million Reaching Home. The other funding for Homeward Trust directly has not as yet been cascaded through the programs that are focused on homelessness in our community.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

That's the risk of funding the provinces and asking them to do federal work. Sometimes the provinces have different priorities, and therefore the money wouldn't get to the front lines. And it hasn't.

[Susan McGee]

Yes. It certainly has some risk. Good plans and good scenario planning can't happen in a bubble. That's the risk.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

In terms of the acquisition of assets to support distancing people, quarantining people and providing health services, how many sites has your organization helped secure during COVID to provide more stable housing for individuals who are in precarious situations?

[Susan McGee]

We've taken a bit of a different approach, not through acquisition but through head-leasing and negotiating with a hotel operator. We have a couple of other permanent supportive housing projects in play. We're still hoping to secure capital through the CMHC grant.

We've taken the approach that we really want to have both a short game and a long game in terms of immediate crisis response, but we want to make the best long-term investments for our community. We did look at a lot of things initially. We were concerned about really tying up money that needed to be thought through better.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

I have one last quick question. In terms of the CERB or basic income delivered by the federal government, and in terms of housing supports for individuals, do the supports work better when the assets are owned? That would drive down the cost of delivering those programs. Would you recommend that we support the acquisition of sites as we build out supportive housing networks across the country to deal with both COVID and homelessness going forward?

[Susan McGee]

Absolutely. We really do need longer-term planning when it comes to our assets and to homes and housing. We are building housing for people, not just temporary transitional spaces. It ensures that we can plan ahead. That's achieved through acquisition, certainly thoughtfully; when when we work in communities, that is what we aim to do. That long-term commitment is pretty critical to being able to ensure long-term success.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

To be clear here, basic income works, but it works better when there's affordable housing attached to it. In other words, if there's a system to tie it to, then basic income goes further, works harder and provides more support for people.

[Susan McGee]

It would be what we look to in terms of turning the lights on and in terms of capital and operating capital. Then we can bring supports to the individuals as they need in order to ensure they have the greatest opportunity for success.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the witnesses. I am pleased that we were able to meet again so quickly.

My first question is for Ms. McGee.

Thank you for your testimony. You talked about the issues of homelessness and social housing. You have this particular organization in Alberta, but I think these are important concerns in every province. They were important before the pandemic, but they have become even more pressing during the pandemic. Earlier, you said that you are a leader.

If I understood correctly, you said that community organizations sometimes see confusion between levels of government. You believe that we should let organizations govern because they are able to better understand the needs of the community. As we have seen, ecosystems in every province have a role to play in meeting the demand when it comes to both homelessness and social housing.

Don't you think that agencies and provinces should be allowed to lead and that the federal government should support them with funding?

[Susan McGee]

I think when we talk about organizations, there are certainly different types of organizations that fulfill different roles in both responding to a crisis and maintaining a focus on long-term solutions. While both are needed, if they're not coordinated, we just continue to do what we've always done, and it is a very expensive response in the long run.

Certainly our role in working with the 25 agencies that we contract with is to really strengthen and reinforce what they are focused on and what their capacity is and to rely on it heavily. However, no one social delivery organization, be it a shelter or a drop-in or another, will necessarily have the alignment to really focus on longer-term community successes. There are organizations that focus on that, such as Homeward Trust and other entities across Canada. Really, it's about looking at and acknowledging that we do have a system that responds to and either helps people or, in a worst-case scenario, actually contributes to their experience of homelessness if it's not delivered really effectively and impactfully. When we talk about those organizations, that is very much what we do.

In terms of prioritizing, we apply a lot of rigour around ensuring that we are having the greatest impact for our resources, and we do that as part of the added value locally. I think the other thing I would note is that for Homeward Trust and the multiple streams of funding that we administer, we try to alleviate administrative pressure on agencies, and we are able to utilize money from different streams in a really intentional way.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

That said, often, thanks to the coordination efforts in the provinces, each of the communities is able to see what the best means and solutions are, depending on the ecosystem. Sometimes, attempts are made to impose uniform policies across the country, but that may not be the solution. I understand your answer and I respect it.

Let me ask you a second question, which is simple. In the event of a second wave of the pandemic, given what we have been through, what would your apprehensions be? What would have to be done?

[Susan McGee]

In Edmonton, we simply do not have the square footage to allow for and support a response with the appropriate distancing, should any of our shelters have to close in response to a pandemic. So there is definitely a priority, real-time focus on space, and we need to be able to mobilize resources very quickly. The ability to continue to do that relies on continuing to support a coordinated approach, but the ability to do that as we did in the first few weeks has shifted. My concern is that our thinking has regressed a bit towards our less confident approach to solving problems.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Taylor, you talked a lot about mortgages. One of your recommendations is to extend the deferral period for mortgage payments by at least six months. Could you tell me how you came up with your assessment of the required period? Do you know how many Canadians have asked for this deferral?

Furthermore, are you not concerned that, when interest rates are very low, household debt is high? Actually, household mortgages can account for as much as three-quarters of a household's debt.

How can your proposal be reconciled with the fact that 8.6 million unemployed men and women in Quebec have asked for emergency assistance? Don't you see a danger there?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Give a short answer, please, if you can. We're out of time.

[Paul Taylor]

Thank you for the question. I apologize for answering in English, but my French is very bad.

We decided that an additional six months' extension on the mortgage deferrals was required because the people who we think are most significantly impacted by the COVID-19 shutdown are the folks working in travel, tourism and hospitality-related industries. Some are anticipating that it's going to be at least 12 months from last April before the airline industry, for example, really gets anywhere close to previous volumes. The folks involved in those industries are not generally in low-paying professions; they will be in very secure roles once those activities return.

As we said, we really do expect there to be an extension of credit to only the folks we anticipate will actually have a good opportunity to be able to begin to repay those loans once they return to work. In March when the announcement that deferrals were available was made, you will probably all recall that there were record-breaking numbers of phone calls to banks and lenders as people tried to avail themselves of those deferrals. Just because of the sheer volume of requests, the deferrals were given to effectively everybody. There wasn't an awful lot of means testing, and so there were an awful lot of people in those programs who probably didn't actually need them from a cash-flow perspective, which is why, encouragingly, we're now seeing a number of people sort of step out voluntarily to make those payments again. We do think there are some sectors of industry that likely will continue to need that support beyond September and October.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Ms. Gazan, go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's really nice to see all of my colleagues on the HUMA committee. My first questions are for Ms. McGee.

During this unprecedented time in history, as we've seen in other unprecedented times in history, critical social programs that have been created have collectively benefited all Canadians. There was, for example, employment insurance. I believe that now is a time in history when we have a chance to restructure our economy in a way that is more just and equitable for all. I recently introduced motion 46 in support of a guaranteed livable basic income that would be in addition to all current and future government and social programs, including accessible affordable social housing. How do you think a guaranteed annual livable income in Canada could help realize our international legal obligations to ensure the human right to housing?

[Susan McGee]

We have supported, certainly within the Canadian Alliance strategy, the value of a livable income. I know there's a lot of analysis and there are more discussions to be had about that. The pandemic really is a convergence of different groups and different levels of need. As much as most individuals we support who are currently living rough are a day-to-day emergency concern, we look at the horizon of the next few months and we know that many more people will come into and experience homelessness perhaps for the first time. They will come into a system that right now is quite eroded in its ability to respond through front-line social agencies, the civil society if you will, but also through government programs because individuals have really tenuous housing circumstances and what the next few months will bring is very difficult to predict and we're kind of guessing. What we do know, however, is that we're not ready for it.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you very much. I completely agree with you and I think, knowing that we could be in this for two or three more years, we need an urgent response to ensure that we can keep people out of poverty. That being said, can you speak about the critical importance of ending homelessness and ensuring adequate housing for all within the government's COVID-19 response strategy? I know that in my riding of Winnipeg Centre, which is the third-poorest in the country, we now have families going into shelters because we just don't have enough houses even for families, and that means kids becoming homeless and living on the street. That's another reason to speak to the importance of guaranteed livable basic income. How, going forward, is this going to be critical in the emergency response to COVID-19?

[Susan McGee]

In terms of the individuals we are currently seeing, such as the increased number of people living rough, they are many of our most vulnerable individuals. They have often complex needs. They are requiring a high level of support. As our most vulnerable community members, they have very few options. It's very critical right now. I mean, the reason we get out of bed every morning in our organization is to end homelessness. I would say that one of the things that really keep us motivated is the fact that we know we can. One person at a time, we have provided housing solutions, and it has reduced costs in other systems.

When we are faced with such a huge human cost and we know we can do something about it, and when in the context of a pandemic we've been working really hard collectively in a different way and in a better way, I think it's incumbent on us to really take the moment and continue to do that work. It certainly is a situation where it is the most vulnerable and it's a convergence of people with different pressures. Right now we're seeing more and more people really succumb to significant pressures on their mental health and their ability to just maintain themselves.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes. I totally agree.

I have one last question for you. Do you believe the national housing strategy should be revised or revisited to consider the increased vulnerability and housing insecurity facing Canadians as a result of COVID-19? I think you've spoken to a lot of that. My concern is that we have a homeless crisis, certainly in Winnipeg Centre, that I believe will grow rapidly. How should the response change as the situation rapidly changes?

[Susan McGee]

You know, the national housing strategy has some really important moves forward. It was a significant step forward for our country to have such a coordinated strategy that was absent for so long. I would really underscore that we need to do things faster, providing housing in a well-thought-out business model, which is the way the program was designed, and prioritizing vulnerable people, which it does. It still relies, however, on a level of risk mitigation where, at the end of the day, we're just downloading on people. They will remain in the situation they're in for far longer if we don't expedite the program and the delivery of the decisions that have already been made.