Human Resources Committee on May 1st, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number seven of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Pursuant to the orders of reference of March 24, April 11 and April 20, 2020, the committee is meeting for the purpose of receiving evidence concerning matters related to the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Today's meeting is taking place by video conference, and the proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

At the end of yesterday's meeting we had an exchange where I wrongly ruled against a point of order raised by Mr. Albas. I have since consulted with the clerk, and I can now assure the committee members that it will not be repeated. Every member has the right to determine which witness answers their question. Only witnesses get to answer questions, and it's the witness who is identified by the member. That is not what happened yesterday, and that was through my error. I have apologized to Ms. Kwan and Mr. Albas for that, and I now do so publicly.

Should any technical challenges arise, for example, in relation to the interpretation, or if you are accidentally disconnected, please advise the chair or the clerk immediately and the technical team will work to resolve them. Please note that we may need to suspend during these times, as we need to ensure that all members are able to participate fully.

Mr. Vaughan, did you have a point of order before I introduce the witnesses?

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

I just want to say that I put the chair in that position. It was my assumption that, as it was in the previous term when parliamentary secretaries could provide input, the same thing was allowed here. I apologize for putting both the chair and the members of the committee in an awkward position. I apologize to Jenny Kwan, as well as to the committee and the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.

I would now like to thank the witnesses for joining us today.

We have, from the Department of Employment and Social Development, Chantal Maheu, deputy minister, labour; Anthony Giles, assistant deputy minister; and Gary Robertson, assistant deputy minister.

I understand that Ms. Maheu has some opening remarks.

You have 10 minutes. Please proceed.

[Chantal Maheu, Deputy Minister, Labour, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Thank you, Chair and members, for inviting us.

I won't use the 10 minutes. I just want to say a few words.

I'm the deputy minister for the labour program. I am accompanied by Tony Giles, who is the ADM responsible for policy, dispute resolution and international affairs; and Gary Robertson, who is the ADM responsible for compliance, operations and development.

We're here from the labour program, and as you know, we're part of the ESDC portfolio.

[Technical difficulty—Editor]

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

I have a point of order. I'm really having a hard time hearing Chantal. It keeps cutting out. I'm not sure if it's just for me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

It is for me as well, and I see some hands waving on the screen.

Ms. Maheu, I hope I will be able to get some technical assistance in there for you because I think we're all having trouble hearing you.

[Chantal Maheu]

Thank you very much.

I will speak more slowly. If there is something, please interrupt me again.

I was just saying that the regulated sector is limited to a few major industries for the Canadian economy. I'm talking about interprovincial and international transportation, banking systems, telecoms and, in some respects, the federal public service. It's important because it provides an indication of where we actually have an impact and a role to play. For the rest of the economy, the provinces and the territories will exercise their jurisdiction.

The last thing I want to note is that I'm aware that my colleagues Graham Flack, the deputy minister of ESDC; and Lori MacDonald, who is the chief operating officer for Service Canada, were here yesterday and the week before to answer some broader ESDC questions related to their mandate. I'm pleased to be here today with my colleagues to answer questions related to the labour program.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, Ms. Maheu.

We'll now begin with rounds of questions, starting with the Conservatives, and Tamara Jansen for six minutes.

Ms. Jansen.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I want to start with how in the early stages of this pandemic your government introduced support for small business owners in the form of a 10% wage subsidy. Then, because of accountability in the House of Commons and the work of the opposition parties and stakeholders across Canada, your government introduced a 75% wage subsidy.

Can you please explain the decision-making process that led your government to posit that a 10% wage subsidy would be enough to support small and medium-sized business enterprises?

[Chantal Maheu]

I'm not sure if I'm reflecting the question, but thank you for it.

I will have to say that questions around wage subsidies don't pertain to the labour program mandate. The wage subsidy program is something that the Department of Finance worked on, in the same way that assistance for workers was an ESDC initiative, so I'm not privy to the decision-making process that led to the decision to increase the amount.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Okay.

Over 10 million Canadians have applied for the CERB, and to put this into perspective, Canada's total work force is around 19 million Canadians. The unfortunate reality is that many businesses will not be able to reopen when this is over. Many struggle to retain all their employees.

What's the plan for the recovery of Canada's labour force after this pandemic?

[Chantal Maheu]

I'm sorry because I again have to point to my colleagues at ESDC, the Department of Finance, and Innovation, Science and Economic Development for the recovery of the economy and the plan for reopening.

What I can say is that in our responsibility for protecting the occupational health and safety of workers or ensuring that employers and employees avert those risks, we are thinking about the recovery and how to best support employers doing that. Our mandate is very much limited in this case to occupational health and safety in the workplace.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Then I have a question in regard to PPE. I know there's been a tremendous shortage of PPE. It seems that the national stockpile is fairly low and not able to help. How are we going to ensure the safety of employees as we do open if there's no ability to get any PPE to them?

[Chantal Maheu]

I will refer this question to Gary Robertson, but let me say a few words on this first.

As you know, the procurement of PPE is something that has been managed, first, for the health care system by our colleagues in the Department [Technical difficulty--Editor] Service Canada [Technical difficulty--Editor]. I hope I'm clear enough.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Could you repeat that? I'm sorry, I couldn't understand.

[Chantal Maheu]

The first priority in the procurement of PPE was for the [Technical difficulty--Editor] system.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I'm sorry, I still can't quite understand.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Chair, on a point of order, I don't think it's a mike thing; I think it's a connection thing. There's clearly a poor connection there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I suggest that we suspend for five minutes and perhaps see if the IT folks can connect with Ms. Maheu to try to resolve this.

I don't want to suspend unnecessarily, but if it's going to make the meeting more productive, I do.

We're suspended, then for five minutes. Thank you for your help.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I call the meeting back to order.

Mrs. Jansen is at the four-minute mark of her six minutes of questions.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I'm hoping to get an answer in regard to PPE. If we would like to start opening back up again, how are we going to ensure that we have sufficient PPE, because we haven't from the very beginning? I've been on the health committee, and it appears that the stockpile was not stockpiled. I wonder what the plan is to ensure that Canadians across Canada are going to have PPE when they go back to work.

[Chantal Maheu]

Thank you, and I hope you can hear me better now.

I'll turn to my colleague Gary Robertson in a second, but what I'll say more generally is that on the demand for PPE, the priority has been assigned to health care workers. The public health agencies are working with their provincial and territorial counterparts to identify the needs in the health care system and working with Procurement Canada to procure for that group. We're very much aware that other employers also need PPE, but they also have ways of mitigating the risks so they don't necessarily need PPE, because not every employee is exposed to the same level of risk.

Maybe what I'll do now is turn to Mr. Robertson to—

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Actually, what you mentioned there made me think of the seniors care home down the road from me. They actually disallowed Fraser Health care workers from coming in, because Fraser Health only assigned them two masks and two sets of gloves for a month of working in the facilities.

How on earth are we going to fix a problem like that? What role do you play in that?

[Chantal Maheu]

Let me turn right now to Mr. Robertson to speak about our role in PPE and overseeing that.

I'll turn to Gary now.

[Gary Robertson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Compliance, Operations and Program Development Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Thank you.

Maybe I'll just step back a minute to give a broader context and then answer your question very directly.

We're responsible for regulating the federal entities, and that's roughly, in the occupational health and safety domain, 8% of the Canadian workforce. It includes, as Chantal said in her opening remarks, some of the larger employers that you'd be aware of in rail, air, etc. It does not include some of the other activities that are provincially regulated, like long-term care facilities or hospitals, for example.

Having said that, within the federal domain, our occupational health and safety approach is based on a concept called the “internal responsibility system”. This is very key and is consistent with the other jurisdictions' approaches as well, where no one knows the workplace better than the folks who work in it, and that includes both the employers, as you would expect, but also the employees—