Human Resources Committee on May 1st, 2020

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I would now like to talk about a particular problem facing thousands of workers regarding pension funds [technical difficulties]. As reported in the media, they’re affected by the current crisis, and this issue comes on top of other difficulties.

Can you assure us that you're working to ensure that workers [technical difficulties]/

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

On a point of order, as nice as it is to see each other's faces, it seems that the problem is the computer line that's connecting. We wouldn't be able to see the official's face, but maybe a land line might provide a more stable audio feed and help the meeting move faster.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

The other thing I would recommend is that for anybody who is online, turn off all the Wi-Fi on your additional devices so that it's not drawing down the bandwidth around you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Perhaps we could bring in the IT ambassador on this point.

[A voice]

Mr. Doherty does have a very good point about bringing down any use of the bandwidth if you're on a wireless device. We've suggested at all times that a wired connection will always be better—from the computer to the Internet, as well as from the headset to the computer. Another thing that will bring down the bandwidth consumption is turning off your video; that way, your entire signal is going to the audio only.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

That's some advice for everyone to try keep this moving.

Ms. Chabot, you still have three minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I was asking a question about the pension funds and pension plans of workers across the country and the economic crisis we will find ourselves in.

Do you plan on protecting workers' pension plans? I hope so. If so, how?

[Chantal Maheu]

Thank you for your question.

The Labour Program is not responsible for pension plans. They fall under the jurisdiction of the provinces, and federal plans are the responsibility of the Department of Finance. Sometimes, in the case of bankruptcy, the Department of Innovation, Science and Economic Development will be responsible.

I'm sorry, but that does not fall under our mandate.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

It falls under your mandate in the event of bankruptcy, does it not?

[Chantal Maheu]

In the event of bankruptcy, the Labour Program compensates employees who did not receive the wages or severance pay owed. We administer this program, but it does not protect pension funds. It protects workers.

Mr. Robertson would be able to give you more information on that program if you'd like.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

In the event of bankruptcy, pension funds must be the priority before a company shuts down. A bill to that effect has been introduced. Pension funds always end up coming last, and workers may end up with nothing. In light of what is going on now, this is urgent.

Are you working on these issues?

[Chantal Maheu]

The Department of Employment and Social Development is not responsible for protecting pension funds. If pension funds are in need of protections, this would be done by other departments.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I respect your answer, Ms. Maheu, but we cannot work in a vacuum on these issues because they affect workers. There may be other departments looking into this issue, but the Department of Employment and Social Development should be responsible for ensuring that workers are protected. That cannot be compartmentalized.

[Chantal Maheu]

I understand. That's why I'll try to redirect the discussion to the program that we administer, which provides financial support to employees who did not receive their wages or their severance pay after a business declares bankruptcy.

If you want more information on that, Mr. Robertson would be happy to help.

[Gary Robertson]

As Ms. Maheu said, we are not responsible for what happens after the period of employment. Our mandate is limited to the period of employment.

A number of other departments have responsibilities in this arena. Employment and Social Development Canada is responsible for CPP, and other departments, such as the Department of Finance, are responsible for other pensions. Some organizations do offer an additional pension, but that's not part of our responsibilities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot and Mr. Robertson.

Next we have the NDP for six minutes.

Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to first raise this point. When the officials say that it is the employer who knows best in terms of workplace safety, I would argue that it is the employees who know best, because they are the people who are going to be put at risk in this situation.

From that perspective, when people ask for personal protective equipment, I think they should be provided that equipment.

As a case in point, I received an email from a worker in Quebec. The worker works in a different sector, and because Quebec has a mandatory redeployment policy, all these workers are being redeployed to another area, which has been deemed mandatory. They are not trained and are ill-equipped.

People are very stressed in that situation. They feel that if they do not abide by that mandatory redeployment requirement, they will lose their jobs; they will be fired.

The email I received is very lengthy. It is from someone who is in that situation right now. The individual also further explained by way of copies of emails that have been exchanged between the worker and the employer, and on the issue around personal protective equipment, and so on, not being available, the response was basically saying, “Good luck; this is what you have to do.”

I'd like to get a response from the officials on that. How do people deal with those kinds of situations? If they're put in an environment that they feel is not safe, they're ill-equipped to do that work and they are forced to quit because they are made to do it otherwise, what will happen to them?

If you voluntarily leave your job, you would not qualify for CERB or for government assistance.

[Chantal Maheu]

Thank you very much for the question. It raises a lot of very important issues.

The first one I'll tackle is regarding who knows best. I will agree with you, partly, that the employer and the employees together know best. What I will say is that the employer has more tools to address the issue, but the employees or employee representatives have key roles in identifying the risks and defining the solutions. A fundamental aspect of occupational health and safety is that both sides have to work together to find solutions.

I do want to come back to the PPE, and I'll turn to Gary again, but I want to say something. In a workplace, people have to work through the risks and identify how to mitigate the risks. It may be that in some cases people do need PPE and that PPE is required, but there are often other measures that are also essential to have in place. We know a lot about social distancing, and we see these plexiglass barriers that protect, so depending on the workplace, it's a combination of changing the work process, some equipment and potentially some PPE. All of that leads to a solution.

The final thing we should address to answer your question is the fear of reprisal, and the fact that people may feel that they could lose their job or that they have to work in dangerous situations. There are provisions in the code to prevent that.

I'll turn to Gary to give more details. Our answer will pertain to the federally regulated sector—that's our scope—but most provinces have very similar legislation.

Gary.

[Gary Robertson]

Thank you.

I'd like to reinforce that the internal responsibility system that our code is based on requires the involvement both of the employers and the employees. The objective is for them to collaboratively identify all the risks—in this case, the biological risks—to eliminate the risk if it's possible to do so, and if it's not, to minimize the risk to the degree possible.

To Chantal's point on PPE, and this may go to an earlier question received in the committee, certainly if PPE is a requirement to help minimize the risk, which it may or may not be, the employer is to provide it, and the employees are to receive training and in many cases fit testing, to make sure that it works for them in their circumstances.

In the event that it is required and is not provided, employees have every right in the federal jurisdiction to refuse to work, to try to resolve it internally within their organization, and if it's not possible to do so, to escalate the concern to us, and we would investigate.

I hope that's helpful.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you. I will endeavour to pass that information on to the individual, and perhaps they can be directly in contact with your ministry to resolve the situation.

It sounds to me to be quite a serious situation, and it's not just one worker; it's a group of workers. As well, in their situation, their collective agreement has been suspended, so that means their protection per the collective agreement would not apply. This is very concerning on many levels, and I hope this can be resolved.

I also want to emphasize the importance of this and perhaps this could be passed on to the other departments. I think it's really important for people to have the assurance that if they feel they have to voluntarily leave their work for these reasons, they would qualify for CERB.

On a different note—and I wonder whether or not this is the right place to bring the concern—I have received yet another email from another constituent, and in that situation, the individual is being asked to collude with the employer to misrepresent the situation for the purpose—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Kwan, I'm sorry. That's your time. I hope you'll get a chance to pose that question directly to the minister in the next round.

Folks, we are ready now for Minister Tassi. We'd like to do a microphone check. I would like to suspend, and then we'll bring the minister back and restart the questions.

We'll suspend for a few minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We are now back in session.

We are pleased to welcome the Honourable Filomena Tassi, Minister of Labour.

Minister, you have 10 minutes for your opening remarks.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Minister of Labour]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, it's a pleasure to be with you today virtually to talk about an update on the measures taken by the government to address the COVID-19 pandemic as they pertain to my portfolio.

I'd like to highlight that today is International Workers' Day. Today, we recognize the millions of workers who go to work every day, and we're reminded of their health and safety at work and how important their health and safety is. This is true now more than ever in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic.

I'd like to thank the committee for its study on the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic. Your work is essential to our democratic process. I know the value of the work that you do. In fact, HUMA was the committee that I sat on.

I'll start by summarizing the support measures the government has taken for workers, and in particular essential workers. Some exceptional, but necessary, measures have been taken to protect and support Canadian businesses and workers during this crisis.

Businesses across Canada have had to dramatically alter or shut down their operations in an effort to help flatten the curve, and this has had an enormous impact on employers and workers alike. To help Canadian workers impacted by COVID-19 put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads, the government introduced the Canada emergency response benefit. I am aware of the fact that my colleague, the Honourable Carla Qualtrough, Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion, has already appeared in front of the committee to discuss this benefit.

To ensure that workers can take time off work to deal with situations related to COVID-19, such as school closures and self-quarantine, we've also created a new leave under the Canada Labour Code, and we are waiving the medical certificate requirements to make it easier for federally regulated workers to access existing leave benefits. While the new leave is unpaid, workers taking it may be eligible to access the Canada emergency response benefit.

My colleague, the Honourable Bill Morneau, Minister of Finance, has been leading the work being done to provide extra income support to our essential workers during this very critical time, if they're earning less than $2,500 a month. These are people on the front line in hospitals and nursing homes, those ensuring the integrity of the food supply, or those providing essential retail services to Canadians. They all play a vital role in providing essential services to Canadians. Their work is essential to our country's well-being, and on behalf of all Canadians, I'd like to thank them for the very important work they do.

Now, I'd like to say a few words about what we've done with leaders in government, labour and industry regarding the support for workers and employers during the COVID-19 crisis.

I am in constant contact with labour and employer organizations in all sectors so that the government can be abreast of concerns on the front lines.

I led a conference of the federal, provincial and territorial labour ministers to coordinate efforts across government to make sure that workplaces for essential workers remain safe during the COVID-19 crisis. We also recently met via teleconference with employers and representatives from labour to discuss the steps we've taken so far to ensure that workplaces are safe, workers are protected and businesses and the Canadian economy are as strong as they can be. This meeting resulted in a joint statement underlining the need for collaboration on the part of labour, industry and government to make sure that workplaces remain safe for Canadians, for Canada's essential workers.

We agreed that the situation continues to evolve, and we must remain flexible and adaptable in how we respond. Above all, we must continue to work together. Working together will yield better results because we can share common goals to protect the health, safety and well-being of Canadian workers. We are also collaborating so that Canadian businesses are able to come back and ensure the economy can recover by getting people back to work safely after the crisis ends. We're going to continue to work together to achieve these goals today and down the road.

I'd now like to talk about the measures the government is taking to protect the health and safety of all Canadians. Pursuant to the Canada Labour Code, employers have a duty to protect the health and safety of their employees in the workplace.

Working with employees and health and safety committees, employers are required to update and create their own hazard prevention programs, including measures to ensure employees are not exposed to conditions that would be harmful to their health and safety while working.

We know that exposure to COVID-19 is a new phenomenon. We also know that we must take this matter very seriously. We encourage employers to seek guidance from appropriate authorities, including the Public Health Agency of Canada and the World Health Organization, for information on preventative measures that should be taken.

The Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety, under the direction of its CEO Anne Tennier, has been doing excellent work in response to the COVID-19 crisis. They have very rapidly developed a series of pandemic guidance tip sheets and made them available for free on their website. These pandemic tip sheets offer guidance and good practices for specific occupations, industries and services for both employees and employers. The CCOHS has also provided an online space called Pandemic Info Share. This enables businesses and organizations to share their pandemic-related good practices and resources.

We know that employers are following guidance and measures from the appropriate authorities, including the Public Health Agency of Canada, to make sure their employees are safe during this critical time. We also know that most employers are doing their best to accommodate reasonable requests from employees who are grappling with the wide-ranging disruptions caused by COVID-19, and I want to thank them for their efforts. For example, there are many workers who have to stay at home to care for their children who are out of school. In some cases they are able to complete some or all of their work from home.

That being said, I know there are many employees who are nervous every day about heading back to work or restarting work. That is why we've reached out to employers and their representatives to remind them of the employers' responsibility under the code. If there is a risk of exposure to COVID-19, employers have an obligation to identify and assess the risk and implement proper controls through their hazard prevention programs. Employees subject to part II of the code have the right to refuse work if they have a reasonable basis to believe their duties present a danger to health and safety. Every workplace and every situation is unique and when a refusal to work cannot be resolved internally, the labour program will investigate.

We are committed to supporting and protecting workers and businesses. As I mentioned, the government has taken a number of unprecedented but necessary steps to support Canadian workers and businesses during this COVID-19 outbreak.

As we continue to monitor the ongoing and continuously evolving situation, we will remain open to exploring additional measures that could further help workers during this time. That means continuing to work with leaders from labour and industry and with other stakeholders to ensure that what we have in place right now is working and, of course, is corrected if need be. We are committed to ensuring that workers and businesses have the protections and support they need, while keeping essential goods and services flowing to Canadians.

With that, Mr. Chair, I conclude my preliminary remarks. Thank you very much for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now begin our questions, starting with the Conservatives.

Mr. Doherty, please, for six minutes.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the minister.

Minister, it's been fairly frustrating. I'm not sure if you've been on this call for the last two hours, but it's been fairly frustrating that your own employees on your own team have had incredible challenges with connectivity. I would ask that perhaps your office pay some attention to this to ensure your own employees have the tools to provide these updates and provide all parliamentarians with the appropriate information. I can see the frustration on your employees' faces.

Minister, are you aware of the letter written by CUPE to you and Minister Garneau on April 6, 2020, yes or no?