Evidence of meeting #16 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A recording is available from Parliament.
The Clerk
Yes, but the question is whether committee members would like to get additional information in advance if more than five minutes are required. That being said, the normal time frame is five minutes.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
Fine.
I think I'm reading a consensus to not alter the rules and to encourage them to provide a more comprehensive opening statement if they feel restricted by the five minutes.
Thank you, colleagues.
With respect to the next study, it would be customary for us to advise at the beginning of a study that folks can submit written briefs. I would like to hear from you on that.
Normally we would notify people that they can submit a brief, and let them know a deadline. Based on our current workload, I would estimate we will probably finish hearing from witnesses on this study about mid-April. If we set a deadline of mid-April for briefs, subject to it being changed if the circumstances change, that might be reasonable.
Are there any thoughts with respect to the submission of briefs?
Mr. Vis.
February 16th, 2021 / 6:05 p.m.
Conservative
Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Earlier today I met with the Canadian Federation of Students. They had a lot to say on employment insurance, but I don't believe they're on our witness list. I think it's in the interest of this committee to get a full appreciation of the complexity of this issue we're trying to address in five meetings; it would be to our collective benefit.
I might have to get some west coast fishermen to challenge all those great benefits you have on Prince Edward Island that I'm sure they would love to have out here on the west coast as well. I'm kidding on the second point.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
I take it you agree we should allow for written briefs.
Is there anybody with any strong feeling around a mid-April deadline or any other comments with respect to briefs?
I believe I see consensus on that point. Thank you.
Can we come back now to the study at hand?
A draft outline for the report on “Urban, Rural and Northern Indigenous Housing” has been circulated. Are there any comments, advice or further directions for the analysts, including what we do with the testimony we heard in the last hour and how we incorporate that?
The floor is open for advice to the analysts with respect to drafting.
Mr. Vis, you have the floor.
Conservative
Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I'm sorry for hogging the mike today.
I would just say, under section D, if Chief Leon, who appeared before committee and spoke about the challenges that on-reserve indigenous Canadians also face, could at least be referenced or alluded to, it would be most appreciated. In my riding, which is largely rural and in many areas remote, indigenous people are still living on reserve but still meet all of those other criteria. That's not the focus of our report, but I think it plays heavily into what we discuss and how it relates to urban indigenous issues as well or indigenous people living off reserve.
Otherwise I felt that the draft report outline was generally quite balanced and good.
Thank you.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
I agree with regard to the draft outline we were given. I guess it's intended for our discussion of the general situation of indigenous people living off-reserve. Since our study was on housing for indigenous people living in urban, rural and northern areas, our report should delineate each part of the study that was part of our motion.
Conservative
Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the analysts for doing the work they've done so far. It is very much appreciated.
I'm just wondering, with regard to section D as well—D.1: “Factors that Contribute to the Housing Shortage”—if there can be something on limitations of current policies that can be a barrier—for example, administrative burdens or even bureaucracy. I know there was some testimony late last year about some of the administrative burdens and how even though it's current policy it still is a burden, or how some of the smaller organizations actually don't even apply because doing that costs money and takes manpower and that type of thing.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
I'm not going to speak to a specific section, but I think that from the perspective of trying to form policy based on the report, which—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
Mr. Vaughan, just for the benefit of the interpreters, you've dropped your mike.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
I'm not going to speak to a specific section, but in general, I think we need to ask how big the housing need is, and in a most pronounced way, what we are spending. It's hard to get it from the Parliamentary Budget Office because even though we asked for the breakdown of provincial numbers, we didn't get it. What are we spending in the provinces that might be better spent in indigenous communities themselves, where we know with absolute certainty that it's landing in indigenous households. The goal here is not just to create the program, but also to consolidate existing programs so that we know exactly how we're dealing with indigenous housing as a federal program. It's clear we can't rely on the provinces to partner with us with any certainty.
The second thing in terms of the projection of housing needs now, based on the demographics of the indigenous communities outside the reserve system, which means modern treaties as well as the territories, is that the other information we're likely to need is the demographic growth projections to scale the report, so that we don't solve yesterday's problem tomorrow with today's numbers. Instead, we do it with tomorrow's numbers as part of the solution for tomorrow.
The final piece of it is to break down, based somewhat on what the Parliament Budget Office tried to do, what we need to build, what we need to repair and what we need to subsidize in order to make it viable housing. Good housing systems typically are 50% subsidy, 25% construction and 25% maintenance. That's typically where you try to land your dollars.
I have a feeling that within the backlog of repairs here, we're going to need some sort of assessment of the outstanding state of good repair in existing housing.
The final piece is to make sure that we understand how this intersects with the missing and murdered indigenous women's report and that we also understand that women's housing, housing for youth, and in particular, housing for youth coming out of care are probably the most vulnerable subpopulations of indigenous housing need, even though that covers everything but men in some ways. The reality is that we need to know the demographic split because as we saw in the PBO report, larger families and larger households are typical of indigenous composition. At the same time, we also note that the lack of safe space for individuals puts them in incredibly vulnerable situations. We need a demographic breakdown of what's unique about the housing model so we can scale it appropriately.
The final piece, which I think we need more information on, is that we don't know where the 53% of indigenous people in subsidized housing are. We know that they're getting it—that's what the report tells us—but we don't know whether they're in provincial systems, private systems or indigenous systems or whether their subsidy is coming from a different form of pension, like disability or what have you. If there was any way of helping us to understand exactly what the subsidy needs to be, because the other thing that stood out to me in the report—that I didn't get a chance to ask them about— was that they calculate core housing at 25% for indigenous people whereas it's a 33% calculation for most other Canadians. Why is there an 8% differential for indigenous peoples and do we need to accommodate that in projecting program costs?
Those are some very specific requests that are unanswered by the PBO and some of the testimony we heard.
I hope that isn't too specific and long on the list, but there it is.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Yes, thank you, Chair.
I just have a couple of pieces of clarification. In section D, part 2, we have “Impacts on Indigenous Youth, Women, Girls and 2SLGBTQQIA People”. Are those going to be separate, because they're separate issues? I'm worried that they're going to be clumped together and then the issues won't be delved into adequately.
I know that Adam Vaughan just spoke about the inquiry into murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. We know that rates of violence are increasing, particularly for women, by upwards of 400% in some places. We know about youth homelessness. Certainly in my riding and I know in many ridings, there are many kids aging out of care into homelessness. How is this going to be organized?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
I think these are live questions that we make sure the analysts consider. Our goal here is to give them a bit of feedback to help them come up with a draft. As we see the draft, it may be that we'll have further suggestions.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Yes.
Looking at that, it's indigenous youth, women, girls and 2SLGBTQQIA, but also intersectionality within that, I think is really important.
The other question I had was for some clarification. I don't understand what we were talking about with developing a national indigenous housing organization.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
That was certainly testimony we heard from more than a couple of witnesses, who recommended that.
I would expect that would be something that would be reflected in the report. Whether we adopt it as a recommendation depends on the will of the committee, but certainly it was an idea that we heard from more than one witness.
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Okay.
I know the focus was primarily on developing a national urban indigenous and rural housing strategy. Certainly with the questions we had today, there's a lot of diversity around the country even in terms of how housing is funded.
Having this kind of one-size-fits-all across the country has actually hurt Manitoba in terms of rolling out a rapid housing strategy. I have some concerns about that, just because there is such diversity. A national housing strategy that reflects that diversity and massive jurisdictional differences, I think was more the evidence I heard, rather than just a kind of one-size-fits-all—because it's not fitting.
Also, congratulations to Raquel Dancho for being elected the vice-chair.
Conservative
Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC
The analysts can maybe clarify a couple of points.
I know there are lots of precedents on committee studies to refer to previous studies that were undertaken to provide context.
Can the analysts confirm which reports on missing and murdered indigenous women they would be referring to? I think that does provide good context, if it's been conducted by other committees that we can refer to in the report.