Human Resources Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2021

[Frank Vermaeten]

I'm sorry. I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Are you referring to a CRA delivery of benefits or are you referring to ESDC?

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I'm talking about people having to wait seven or eight weeks, not seven or eight days. These were people who were out of work and had no money coming in, and they applied for the CRB, which your agency clearly administers. They waited seven or eight weeks. Are those wait times a thing of the past now that the measures have been extended?

Not only did I want to ask that question, but I also wanted to point out how unbearably stressful it was for people to wait that long.

[Frank Vermaeten]

I'm not aware of any of those types of waiting periods. In our system, the way it works is that, generally, if you apply and we deem you as qualified, we deliver that in three to five days. There are situations where individuals are deemed to not be qualified. They have to call, and they may have to provide some additional documentation. There can be delays in those cases.

Are those acceptable wait times, whether it's through CRA or whether it's ESDC? Absolutely not. As those things happen and evolve, we try to quickly reorganize ourselves and try to deal with those types of situations as quickly as possible. To the extent that there are delays, it's always a tiny share, but they're important files. We try to do what we can to speed that up as quickly as possible.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Ms. Bégin, thank you for your presentation.

I don't want to get into the statistical details, but I have a question about the unemployment rate.

Under the current EI system—not the revised measures—unemployment rates are variable in 62 socio-economic regions of the country. A single region can even have two different unemployment rates, which is the case on the upper north shore and lower north shore. This creates different eligibility criteria for EI claimants.

One way to relax the rules for accessing EI is to use the same minimum unemployment rate in all regions. We think that is part of the answer. Do you think that would have a positive impact on eligibility, especially given the latest statistics you cited for us?

[Josée Bégin]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Chabot.

Anything having to do with EI eligibility falls within Employment and Social Development Canada's purview, not Statistic Canada's, so I can't answer that.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I'll rephrase the question, then.

What challenges do you come up against when you try to determine the different unemployment rates in a single region? I mentioned the upper north shore and the lower north shore, but eastern Quebec has the same problem, as do other provinces. It creates other issues as well, since we are talking about reforming the EI system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Please keep your answer brief, if possible.

[Josée Bégin]

The LFS has a sample size of 54,000 households. We interview those people every month either by telephone or in person. The sample is representative of Canada's population, including on a regional basis. The biggest challenge we currently face has to do with survey response rates. We are following the public health rules, so interviewers aren't making in-person visits. Everything is being done by telephone or online.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot and Ms. Bégin.

It's Ms. Gazan's turn, for six minutes.

Ms. Gazan, you have the floor.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

My first questions are for either Annette Butikofer or Frank Vermaeten.

From the transition between the CERB to the new COVID-19 support benefit, what is the percentage of Canadians who were eligible for CERB who are no longer eligible for the new support benefits?

[Frank Vermaeten]

I'm happy to answer. I don't have a statistic on that. The eligibility rules did not change significantly, going from CERB to the CRB. Of course, there are the three benefits: the CRB, the sickness benefit and the caregiver benefit.

Those rules changed. It was a slightly different program, but generally speaking, there was not a big change in eligibility.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

My understanding is that only 40% were eligible for the EI benefit. Is that correct?

[Frank Vermaeten]

I'm not sure what you're referring to by “the EI benefit”.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

If that could be sent to my office, I'd be interested in those percentages if that's possible.

During the pandemic, we see that the CERB acted as a de facto guaranteed income program. It is something that I, along with thousands of others—Basic Income Canada, Basic Income Manitoba and many others—have been fighting for, for long time, to ensure that all Canadians have a livable income.

With that in mind, are there any lessons that the CRA learned in terms of its potential future ability to deliver a guaranteed livable basic income program?

I ask that because it looks as though we're still going to be in the pandemic for a number of months, and we know that many people, in terms of EI, are running out of benefits. How are we going to keep Canadians supported?

[Frank Vermaeten]

That is a policy question. It's not really our job within the Canada Revenue Agency to comment on a policy such as the guaranteed annual income.

I will say that it's a challenge. If I think about administering the CERB and the CRB, one of the big challenges is to determine eligibility. In that case, it's to determine their level of income.

You have two types of workers: those who are perhaps EI eligible, who are working for an employer; and those who are self-employed. With respect to those who are employed, it's easier to know what kind of income they had. If we had a system that provided very regular updates of that employment income, that part of it would be less challenging, to measure the income. With the self-employed, it does become inherently more difficult to measure income and to measure effort.

Whether you see—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Then it becomes very bureaucratic, like the system the way it is.

[Frank Vermaeten]

It's just challenging when someone has a lower level of income. Why is it that they have a declared lower level of self-employed income? Is it because of a lower effort or is it because of changing market conditions, or what are those conditions? Isolating those effects becomes very challenging.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you.

I have one last question. I've heard of many from the disability community who do not think the disability tax credit is a good policy instrument, because it privileges those who are able to work. Even for those folks, it provides a very marginal value.

If somebody has the disability tax credit, they can, for example, open an RDSP, which can be really beneficial, but again, it also privileges those who can afford to contribute to an RDSP.

Would you agree with that assessment, and in your opinion, what are some of the alternative policy options that would benefit the most marginalized individuals in the disability community?

[Frank Vermaeten]

I could say maybe a few words. Again, this is a policy area best directed to the Department of Finance or ESDC.

The DTC is aimed towards those who have a severe disability, so it isn't for everyone. It is considered a benefit that can provide a gateway to other benefits, such as the RDSP. I should note that the RDSP does have a bond and grant element to it to help those lower-income individuals.

I think the DTC is effective at identifying those with a severe disability and then provides a gateway. Of course, it's non-refundable. Therefore, the benefit itself is not necessarily skewed towards those who are working, but as far as the actual dollar value it provides is concerned, because it's non-refundable it's only going to provide a benefit for those individuals who are taxable.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I want to move to that very quickly because I know that many people in the disability community have been advocating for a disability tax credit to be refundable, which would result in a meaningful increase in income for many persons with disabilities who live far below the poverty line. Has this been considered?

Do you know if this has been discussed?

[Frank Vermaeten]

Certainly it's an issue that's been discussed for many years. It was part of the disability advisory committee report. That was mentioned in that report. With respect to the policy itself that's certainly in the purview of the Department of Finance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Vermaeten and Ms. Gazan.

Next we're going to go to Ms. Dancho for five minutes please.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

My first few questions are for Mr. Vermaeten.

It was touched on a little bit in the previous panel by my colleague, but I want to talk to you about the CRB-EI issue. Just for folks who aren't aware, there seems to be a bit of an issue. You mentioned it's with only a few people, but for folks who aren't eligible for EI to actually get the CRB, there seems to be some sort of tech issue at CRA that allows them to roll into that program. I think you were addressing this in the last round, and said that there weren't that many people but it was happening.

Do you have a concrete idea of how many people are impacted by this sort of technical issue?

[Frank Vermaeten]

I can certainly get you a number. It's quite small. My guess would be it's more in the low thousands when one takes the multi-million number of people who are applying. I can certainly give you a simple example.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

That's all right. I have a couple of examples that have come to my attention, which is why I'm asking someone to see when the issue will be addressed. You have a timeline. Are you currently working on addressing this problem?