Human Resources Committee on Feb. 25th, 2021

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Again, the original intent of the bill, looking at compassionate leave, was built on some of the work I did at the Alberta provincial legislature, but what it turned into was very specific to caregiving and how caregivers are supported, which is important and needs to continue to be part of the conversation.

With the reach-out from Parliamentary Secretary Housefather and Minister Tassi, we said, “Why don't we look at broadening it to include everybody who would go through bereavement?” Again, it's for those sudden instances, a sudden diagnosis of cancer where we don't have the ability at the beginning to do that caregiving. It helps to expand that general scope.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Ms. Masotti, Ms. Sonea or Mr. Adams, is there anything you'd like to add to that or comment on?

[Kelly Masotti]

I don't have much to add. I would agree with what Mr. Jeneroux just said. Any level of additional support for caregivers would be welcome. We know that when individuals are diagnosed with cancer, rates of anxiety and depression skyrocket. Throughout our surveying over the last few months, we're seeing the same for caregivers, who also experience those same levels of anxiety in helping and caring for their loved ones.

Broadening the bill, and the amendments suggested, are wise. Any additional support for people in a time of crisis is something we should all be very proud of and support.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Absolutely, it's very much needed.

Mr. Adams, do you have anything you'd like to add?

[Paul Adams]

I'd just add quickly that we have a gap in the research. We don't really understand right now fully the burden of grief, how many people grieve or the pace of grieving. Certainly there isn't much in Canada to know with precision how much time people need. Those needs would be various. I don't think we know that. We absolutely applaud the changes and we hope that by being more expansive it will touch more people. However, we also hope that in time we can have more research in this country so that we understand more precisely what the needs are.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you for that.

We'll go back to you, Matt.

One of the proposed amendments we made to Bill C-220, the act to amend the Canada Labour Code, is to extend bereavement leave by five days, for a total of 10 days. We just talked about that earlier. Can you speak to the importance of expanding bereavement leave, and how this will ensure that employees are given the time they need to grieve and focus on practical necessities in the event they lose a loved one?

Mr. Adams, you certainly commented on that but, Matt, I'll let you go first.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I'll just be brief.

Similar to my previous answer, it expands that scope a lot more. Part of what we were seeing with the hurdles in the original legislation was that, as we all know, as members of Parliament we can't expand the EI component. We can't force the government to spend money. That was always a piece of the original legislation. All private member's legislation will not allow you to move along in that step, which obviously is a needed step. It's hopefully a next step, after we are able to pass this bill.

Right now, to be able to bring that to the 10 days, it sets that standard across the country, which we see 95% of the time provinces follow along with as well. It allows us to build that standard across the country.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you for that.

Is there anything you'd like to add, Mr. Adams?

[Paul Adams]

I just want to support what Mr. Jeneroux said. We see this legislation as setting a standard and setting a pathway for further steps, and at the provincial level as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Do you want to let the Canadian Cancer Society have a brief comment on this?

We're past time, but if you have anything to add, Ms. Masotti, go ahead.

[Kelly Masotti]

I don't have anything to add other than “I agree”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Great.

Thank you, Mr. Long.

Ms. Chabot has the floor now for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, dear colleague, and I’d like to thank you for coming to tell us about your bill.

I’d also like to thank the other witnesses for being here with us today.

As you mentioned, the fact that we were able to get this bill on the committee’s agenda means that it can get to the House more quickly for adoption.

After your bill was introduced, I had the opportunity to comment on it as a colleague and parliamentarian, and I was very much in favour of it. It might not change the world, but it’s a subject that means a lot to me and about which I get very emotional. I’m sure you’re aware that we’re already very much in favour of the bill, and I can tell you that we’ll also be in favour of the proposed amendments.

There are benefits for caregivers, but most people receive employment insurance compassionate care benefits. The problem with both of these types of benefits is that they stop as soon the person dies, and the caregivers have to return to work. Now the bill that you have introduced is designed not only to protect, but especially to support, people providing care to their dear ones as they go through life, for days, weeks and sometimes even months. It’s important to be aware of the situation. No one should be penalized for suddenly having to return to work without having had the time to grieve. On that point you have our full support.

I have six minutes, but I don’t know whether I’ll have any specific questions for you. If you have other points to make, I’d be glad to give you time to explain them.

I fully understand what you’re saying about grieving. It’s true that people don’t talk about it much, as grieving is generally a private matter. Everyone experiences grief in their own way. The pandemic has made the process even more painful. Though I have not experienced it personally, I understand what it can represent. People need to have time and flexibility. We can certainly do more in this area, and that precisely is the intent of the bill.

As I have no questions, I’ll turn things over to you.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chabot.

Our first conversation that we had about this a few months back was enlightening from my perspective, in terms of where the conversation on the bill went.

It's scary to a lot of people to talk about the death of a loved one and to think about that period of time. I spoke to former Senator Carstairs who said that everybody dies and sometimes it's something you don't want to think about. You don't want to think about your loved ones passing away. The importance of having this conversation and the importance of Parliament voting in unanimous support of it is just that it means so much, not just me but to the entire stakeholder community.

If it's okay with you, Madam Chabot, I will allow the Grief Alliance or the Cancer Society to weigh in on some of that.

[Paul Adams]

Madam Chabot, you said that this won't change the world. I agree with you that it doesn't, but it's the beginning of a change. The analogy that I would use is if you go back 30 or 40 years, there was effectively no maternity leave in Canada. We gradually expanded it in an iterative way over a number of reforms to a place where Canadians are more comfortable with where we are that way.

That's how I see it. As the alliance, we think that besides those immediate things that people may need that will allow them to grieve with their families or friends, we also have to think about many people who are in difficult circumstances and may not have adequate supports. Particularly when you think about this time of COVID, there is nothing to say that if you lose a loved one, you may not also have lost a business or a job or some other thing may have befallen you in your life. Those are complex circumstances.

We think there needs to be services to support the grieving. I don't want to get too much into it now, but we think they are different from standard mental health services because grief is a natural process. It's not a mental illness or something.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Adams.

Thank you very much, Ms. Chabot.

Next is Ms. Gazan, please, for six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I just want to start out by thanking Paul Adams for his very touching sharing about his wife.

To Kelly Masotti, as somebody who lost both of her parents to cancer and has two sisters who are breast cancer survivors, I can't tell you how much admiration I have for the important work you do caring for families, especially through the disease of cancer.

My question is for either one of you. We know that women still perform a disproportionately high amount of care work within their families should a loved one get sick. We also know that women tend to have lower earnings than men. This difference is even more pronounced in the case of racialized women. They are the ones most likely to need this leave and the least likely to be able to afford it. Making parallel changes to EI is then even more important.

Do you believe it's important to make parallel changes to EI, especially considering that these factors predominantly impact women?

[Paul Adams]

Absolutely. We believe, as I said in my opening presentation, that a right that you can't access because you can't afford it is not fully a right. I had that privileged circumstance. I did not have to worry in the same way that many people do about losing a job or losing pay. That was what enabled us to get through it.

We really deeply believe that this is an important next step. We've created the space, but now there needs to be some mechanism to allow people to occupy that space.

Beyond that, we would say that there are communities in Canada, particularly indigenous people, who come with a burden of grief to these individual moments in their lives. They may need services that are specific to their needs and are different from those that somebody like me might be eligible for.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

Ms. Masotti, do you have anything to add?

[Kelly Masotti]

This is an easy position to be in right now, because I feel as though I can continuously just say that I support the comments of Mr. Adams and Mr. Jeneroux. Absolutely, we need to look at the EI system and make sure that there is a parallel commitment there.

Not to detract from the discussion right now, our organization hopes to see a comprehensive approach to all levels of care. While it is important to see this at the end, when we're talking about grief, it's also important for the cancer patient and the caregiver.

The Conservatives introduced the compassionate care benefit, which was passed in 2016. The Liberals supported it, as did our organization. As you are looking at this, it is so important to see it as a comprehensive approach. We need support for the patients. We need support for the caregivers. We need an extension to the EI sickness benefit. We need to ensure that on the compassionate care benefit we see changes to the labour code.

There are so many changes that need to be made to provide these practical supports for patients and caregivers alike when they're going through such challenging times or when they are preparing to return to the workforce. This is such an important issue, and I support the comments of Mr. Adams.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

My next question is for MP Jeneroux. I will start by thanking you for introducing this very important bill. It's certainly long overdue and I commend your efforts in that regard.

As we know, in order to benefit from additional leave, Canadians must be able to afford it. Parallel changes to the employment insurance compassionate care benefit would help Canadians so that they can continue to collect the benefit during the additional leave period created by this bill. We want all Canadians to be able to access additional leave provisions without fearing the financial implications, and we recognize that these financial concerns will impact women disproportionately as they tend to do more of the care work and earn less income.

I know it's an extension to the question I asked, but do you also believe parallel changes to the EI compassionate care benefit should follow to mitigate these financial pressures?

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Yes, and thanks, MP Gazan, for that.

That's one of the key aspects of this bill. Not losing sight of the caregiver is the one thing I really want to make sure we're focused on, but also what comes next.

As you know, and in the conversations I've had with your colleague MP Blaikie, there is the need for EI to follow this bill. As private members, again, we can't change EI. We can't tell the government that it needs to spend more money, even though I know you and I both would probably want to do so at some point in our days. However, we want to make sure that, outside the scope of our private member's bill, that's what follows next.

I've had very encouraging conversations with the minister, parliamentary secretary and others as to those next steps.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Jeneroux and Ms. Gazan.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Next we'll go to Mr. Tochor, please, for five minutes.