Evidence of meeting #23 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
I have another question that I want to get in before my time is up.
If legislative changes are required to reform the Social Security Tribunal, as the government has promised are in the upcoming budget.... I'm just confirming that you need legislative changes required.
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
You talked about consulting. Whom have you consulted regarding the SST changes in the past year?
Commissioner for Workers, Canada Employment Insurance Commission
Consulted? You have to realize that I've been in touch with tens of groups that deal with the unemployed, that defend them, that help them across the country, so I can assure you that—
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
Which would be the most common, or which would be most frequent, if you don't mind my asking?
Commissioner for Workers, Canada Employment Insurance Commission
It would be the community legal services, legal services in the various cities across the country; it would be labour unions, you name it.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sean Casey
Thank you, Mr. Laliberté and Mr. Tochor.
The last round of questions is going to go to Mr. Vaughan, please, for five minutes.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
Thank you very much.
I have a couple of questions, one for Madame Forget.
We've had, from every corner of the House of Commons, worthy suggestions around maternity leave, bereavement leave, seasonal workers, paternity leave, gig workers, training while on benefit. I mean, everybody has good intentions, but everybody turns to EI to fix these problems. We just heard that there is a structural deficit, as a result of COVID, now built into the EI fund. Can we realize these benefits without overhauling the system?
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
In my opinion, no, we can't.
I think that one of the characteristics of the existing system is its incredible complexity. Every time we try to solve an additional problem, we layer another layer of complexity on top of it. I think one of the benefits of basic income is that it allows individuals to make their own decisions. It allows individuals to take money—
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
That's right. That's exactly the case.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
In terms of the structure of paying for basic income, it seems that there should be some sort of blend of general revenue, some form of support out of the business sector in terms of its responsibility to maintain full employment but also be able to adjust to economic trends, as well as some connection to the person who receives the benefit.
We heard earlier testimony about this idea of an account as a possible way of approaching this process. Is it time to get past this notion that employment income or employment insurance is a tax that we pay for, and simply understand it as the way to prevent poverty and hardship in our country?
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I think employment insurance plays its role. I think it is a smaller role than we try to make it play, and I think that going forward it's going to be difficult to transform it in such a way that it can meet all of the needs that people try to ask it to meet.
How do we pay for it? If we're talking about the introduction of a basic income, I think there are a number of ways in which we can think about it. We do think about simply streamlining a number of different programs that are offered by various levels of government and that deliver cash to individuals, all with different application processes, all with different regulations and delivered in such a complex way that many people don't receive the benefits to which they're entitled.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
[Technical difficulty—Editor] a single benefit would make things much simpler and much more just. It would actually ensure that people receive the benefits they're entitled to receive.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
Through your work at your national organization, did you assess or study the Ontario Liberal government's approach to basic income as it was being modelled in Hamilton?
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Yes, I did.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
Was that Liberal program a program that has some solutions or some options available for us to look at?
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I think so. I think that one of the difficulties of a provincial program is that provinces simply don't have the capacity that the federal government does to make changes to the tax system and so on. It was being piloted, but it was being piloted as an experiment within an existing range of programs. I think a great deal was learned during that process. I think there are a number of different experiments that can also help us with that.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
There are some who think that the federal government can simply impose its will on the provinces and that there isn't a negotiated process forward, but if we are to adopt and explore basic income, it will have to be done in conjunction with the provinces and territories, because they, too, have part of the revenue, part of the expense and part of the programs that could be cancelled.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
Right. It's not just a question of standing in a Star Trek spaceship and saying “Make it so.” There is a process that we have to follow with the provinces.
Professor, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Right, and I think there is an opportunity to do that and to also recognize that the provinces have different social realities and different economic realities. It's certainly possible to imagine that basic income might take a slightly different flavour depending on where in the country it's rolled out.
Liberal
Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Laliberté, we heard earlier testimony that while the EI system's financial structure is fragile, its computer is almost even more fragile than the system itself. I'm curious as to whether or not you've turned your attention to the cost of fixing the computer as we fix the system, what that price tag would look like, and how critical it might be to the success of the comprehensive reform you talk about.
Commissioner for Workers, Canada Employment Insurance Commission
[Technical difficulty—Editor] sorry about this.