Evidence of meeting #30 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meeting.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Danielle Widmer

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 30 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in public and in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. Proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Today, colleagues, there are a couple of things before we get started.

The fourth draft of the indigenous housing study is not yet available to us. It will be available to us in advance of Tuesday's meeting, and it will be the first item of business at Tuesday's meeting unless otherwise directed here today.

The other thing to tell you is that we have about 56 minutes for this meeting, because we have to vacate for the cleaning protocols for the next meeting. My hope is that we will be able to identify the subject of our next study and adopt some motions with respect to witness lists and the like so that we can be productive after next Tuesday, which will be dedicated, at least in part, to the URN indigenous housing study.

With that, we are in committee business so it's a bit of a blank page, but as I indicated, my hope is that we will be able to identify the subject of our next study and the parameters around it.

Please use the “raise hand” function, and we'll work through the speakers list, beginning with Mr. Turnbull.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's great to be back. I know we were slightly delayed in getting started today due to PROC, which is the other committee that I am on, but nonetheless, I want to thank Ms. Gazan for showing up at PROC and helping us to secure the time for this meeting today because I am glad to be moving forward with HUMA.

On October 15, 2020, I put a motion on notice to the committee. Most members would have received that. I know it's in our shared box for the committee. I would like to move that motion now as the next order of business that we study. It's a topic that I feel very passionately about, and I have prepared a few remarks to put to the committee as to why I believe this should be the next order of business.

I move:

That the committee undertake a study on Social Innovation and Social Finance, outlining how these strategies can contribute to building a more inclusive, resilient, and sustainable economy as we look towards economic recovery, and that this study shall take no less than six meetings.

That motion, again, was put on notice on October 15, 2020, and it's been sitting there. I know that we've prioritized other business up until now, but I do think that this is an important topic. It's certainly something I feel extremely passionate about, and I would like to make a bit of a plea to the committee as to why I believe this is an important study to undertake as our next order of business.

I'll make those remarks now if that's okay with the chair.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Yes, of course.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Thanks.

I would say, first and foremost, that I believe this study is relevant because of the many ways we have witnessed COVID-19 exacerbate the inequities within our society and our economy.

I've been studying those statistics quite a bit and have been using them for some of my interventions at PROC. Basically, the statistics show pretty significant inequities for populations that have been disproportionately impacted by COVID-19. This includes immigrants, racialized Canadians, youth, seniors, women, low-wage workers, indigenous people, those living in poverty, those living with a disability or a mental illness, members of the LGBTQ2S+ community and many others.

The list is extensive, but I think the underlying realization is that, if you experience barriers to employment of any kind or are a member of an equity-seeking group, you've felt the impacts of COVID-19 more than others. The pandemic exacerbated the inequities that were already there, and if you are vulnerable, at risk or marginalized in any way, you've found yourself in a worsened predicament and life situation as a result of the pandemic.

We also know that small businesses have been hit hard. The number of new enterprises entering the market, such as new start-up businesses, was, on average, 16,500 per quarter in Canada, every quarter, from 2015 up until the pandemic. During the pandemic, that number has been very close to zero or very low—approaching zero. We know that many businesses, despite the many supports our government has offered and our best efforts, will potentially not survive COVID-19.

The reason I bring this up is that social enterprises are these unique business models that combine a social mission inside a business. They explicitly and intentionally embed a social mission—

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

We have a lot to get through today and the meeting was cut short, so I would ask Mr. Turnbull to wrap up his remarks, please.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

You have the floor, Mr. Turnbull.

Go ahead.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Is there a time limit on my remarks for this? I don't mean to belabour the point, but I have some other remarks that I've prepared.

Ms. Dancho, I'm a relatively new member of Parliament. I'm not sure whether there is a time limit. I totally respect that there are other members who want to speak, so I don't want to dominate the airwaves by any means, but I have some remarks that I want to put forward in support of this motion.

I hope that's okay with Ms. Dancho.

Mr. Chair, do I not have the ability to do that?

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

You absolutely do.

The point of order has not been upheld. You have the floor.

Go ahead.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Thank you.

What I was going to say is that, if a normal business venture put profit at the centre of their business, a social enterprise puts people and the planet at the centre or the core of their business model. You can think of a social entrepreneur as a gentleman like Fabrice Vil from Quebec, who started Pour 3 Points. He says that someone who borrows pragmatic notions from entrepreneurship in order to maximize its beneficial contributions to society is no charity. He says that it contributes to creating positive change in society.

There are over 30,000 social enterprises that were documented across Canada from 2016 and 2017, with over 60% of those that purposely provide employment to marginalized, disadvantaged or vulnerable groups. These are equity-seeking groups. Social enterprises are essentially on-ramps for social and economic inclusion of our most vulnerable segments of the population. This is, I think, very important for this committee to realize, because I think it highlights how the social economy in Canada, and specifically in Quebec, I would say, which serves as an exemplar for all of the country, can really help us in the COVID economic recovery.

The social economy has been 40 years in the making in Canada. The Canadian Community Economic Development Network has been around for that long, and many of us are probably aware of many social enterprises like agriculture co-operatives that started mostly in rural Canada. Credit unions are social enterprises. The Salvation Army thrift stores are social enterprises. Whether you're a button factory in Dartmouth, a public market like Jean-Talon in Montreal, a furniture reuse facility in Toronto like Furniture Bank, an indigenous-owned and operated geothermal energy installation company in Winnipeg or a café and catering business in the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver, these are all businesses that have a social and often environmental mission at the heart of their raison d'être.

I have just a few quick stats, and then I'll move to wrap up.

Ms. Dancho, I'm sorry if I'm being too long or long-winded.

In Ontario alone, based on 2016 statistics, there are over 10,000 social enterprises in operation, and 68% of those had a poverty reduction focus. In Manitoba, there were at least 500 social enterprises in 2016 employing 17,800 people, and Manitoba has its own social enterprise centre called Social Enterprise Manitoba on Main Street in Winnipeg.

The centre is a long-standing partner within the Canadian Community Economic Development Network, which has operated for over 30 years to develop a people-centred economy and social economy within Manitoba. The centre in Winnipeg is a collaborative workspace that houses many social enterprises like Build Inc., AKI Energy, Purpose Construction, Local Investment Toward Employment, the Social Purchasing Portal, Vincent Design Inc., YouthBuild and others.

I want to speak specifically to Quebec and the importance that Quebec has. I have the statistics for all of Canada, but I want to make an appeal to my colleague Ms. Chabot as to why I think that this study is really important, because Quebec, I would submit to you, is probably the leader in this country in terms of the social economy.

There are 11,200 social enterprises employing 220,000 people with sales revenue exceeding $47.8 billion in Quebec alone. Quebec's social economy has been invested in, and the Quebec government has done a great job, as well as the Government of Canada, in setting up what we call social finance infrastructure within that province to help these social enterprises grow, scale and become investment-ready and take on private investment. I have a couple of examples here.

La Fiducie du Chantier de l’économie sociale, which is the fund or the foundation in Quebec, was started with an investment from the Government of Canada of $23.8 million and then leveraged with an additional investment by two labour solidarity funds and the Government of Quebec. In total, just think about the way a government investment can be leveraged with private investment to attract that private investment and then basically help grow social enterprises. There are over 190 of them that have been helped through this particular fund, with almost $439 million in economic activity created and 3,497 jobs.

There's an even older fund in Quebec called RISQ for short—the Réseau d'investissement social du Québec. It has been around since 1997. Over the 22 years that the fund has been around, it has invested in 926 projects and created over 11,000 jobs. Again, with a very small investment this has leveraged private investment to help grow a social economy in Quebec, which I think serves as an example for the rest of the country.

I'll start to wrap up now. These are the reasons that I think this matters. Social enterprises are market-based solutions with a support system and some unique financing tools and mechanisms. These unique types of businesses can grow and become completely viable. Remember as they grow they create more social impact and they create more equity and inclusion. They also address a lot of the issues and challenges that we have, which this committee looks at and, in a way, ESDC is responsible for. I think this committee is the perfect committee to be doing this work.

One thing, I think, that is important to keep in mind is that many are owned and operated by non-profit and charitable organizations across Canada. Imagine Canada has been tracking statistics on the charitable organizations across the country. For many years now it has said that earned revenue, which is what we're talking about, basically charities involved in commercial activity.... It has said that these enterprises that charities run are done for a social mission, but they contribute revenue back to help support their charitable mission as an organization. In a time when those organizations have been left vulnerable by this pandemic and not had the ability to fundraise, I think social enterprise represents an opportunity for them to stabilize and generate revenue back to source in the absence of some of their other revenue streams.

The other thing I need to say is that social enterprises, again, are market-based solutions. What this means is that they do not require public expenditure forever or in perpetuity. They only require an investment for a short period of time, perhaps five years of government support, to really grow in scale.

I'll start to wrap up. What I've seen is that social enterprises can address food insecurity and the energy transition that we want to make. They can be engaged in early learning and child care, and that's a really important initiative that our government has identified. They often operate in waste reduction management and the reuse of many products at the end of their life cycles. They're also very engaged in that. There's seniors' care and reconciliation.

There's quite a great organization called Raven Indigenous Capital Partners, which has developed a unique social finance tool called “community-driven outcomes contracts”. They're an indigenous-run company that is contracting to ACI Energy to essentially have first nation and indigenous communities finance their own projects in their communities and have indigenous-owned and operated businesses or social enterprises do geothermal installations in northern and remote communities.

To me, this is a model we can use to solve many of these problems that we have, and I think our government has recognized that as a priority.

I will leave it there. I think I've made my case.

I hope the members of the committee will support this motion and undertake a study. I think it's really relevant to what we've experienced during COVID-19 and how we are looking at bringing our economy back in a more inclusive, resilient and sustainable way.

Thank you.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.

The motion is in order. The debate is now on the motion.

Ms. Dancho.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate Mr. Turnbull's remarks. They were about 20 minutes long, so I appreciate the in-depth research and arguments he has made in favour of his motion, which he brought forward in October, I believe.

However, my understanding is that the motion was not unanimously agreed to. There was no vote on that; it was just tabled. My concern is that this committee has unanimously agreed to other motions, which should take precedence, particularly given that a number of those motions are focused on COVID-specific issues that are happening right now and that need to be discussed and addressed.

While I'm happy to talk about social finance, I know the provincial government in Manitoba has done good work with social impact bonds. I'd be very happy to have that study at some point, but given that we've unanimously agreed to other motions, I think those should take precedence, particularly the ones that are focusing on current COVID issues that are happening to people right now.

I think Mr. Turnbull has really made a 20-minute long argument. We've heard that, so I would move to adjourn debate on his motion.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

All right.

I'm going to need some procedural advice on this, Madam Clerk. We have a motion to adjourn debate. The first piece of advice I need is whether it's in order, and secondly, whether it's debatable.

5:20 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Danielle Widmer

It is a dilatory motion, which comes to a vote. There's no debate. There's just a vote.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I would ask you then to conduct a vote by roll call, please, Madam Clerk.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

I have a point of order.

I totally respect that the Conservatives want to discuss their priorities. I know other members of the committee have priorities as well. We have all seen the history of this committee together and I would just ask, as a point of order, that we move to, while not continuing the debate, have all the ideas tabled and then make decisions.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I would submit that is out of order. We have a motion that is properly before the committee. We have to deal with that motion.

It's permissible in the debate of that motion to indicate that there's a preference to study something else first. That would be a reason to defeat the motion. It would be in order to put forward other ideas, but at the end of the discussion, we're going to vote on this motion.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

That's fair enough.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

That was actually my question, Mr. Chair. It's hard to vote when we haven't heard the other options. I think that's why I hesitated in my decision.

You have responded to my question. Thank you.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Just to clarify, is the debate on the Liberal motion, or are we to bring up other studies that we would like to propose?

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

The debate is on the motion.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

It's on the motion. I would not want to lose my spot in bringing up what I think would be a much better study. I believe the government, obviously, would like to study what Mr. Turnbull has put forward. As the loyal opposition, if we are being fair to our role, I believe we would put forward something that would be more relevant for these times in terms of impact.

I can think of the study on seniors. We've had numerous seniors, unfortunately, succumb to COVID. There are some real concerns in our country, I believe, on the handling with regard to seniors during this pandemic. I would like to hear a little bit more about what that study would be like. I would hope that opposition members from all parties would realize the importance of this study on seniors versus some very well-intended debate or discussions on social development, which Ryan has put forward. I believe it is much more valuable for our time to look at the one group that has been impacted the most during the pandemic.

Thank you.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you.

Mr. Vis.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

I'll just congratulate Mr. Turnbull on making probably his longest speech as a parliamentarian. I wish he would show that type of passion in the House of Commons during the budget debate.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Chair, I have a point of order.

That's not called for.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

I thought it was a good speech.