Human Resources Committee on May 25th, 2021

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will give my time to my colleague Ms. Larouche.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I also thank my colleague Ms. Chabot. It is always a pleasure to come back to the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. This committee plays an essential role.

Madam Minister, it is very important to have you at the committee. During the last election campaign, both the Liberals and the Bloc Québécois raised seniors' issues. However, our positions were already diverging when it came to numbers. During the last election campaign, you were proposing a 10% increase for those aged 75 and over, while we were proposing an increase of $110 per month for those aged 65 and over.

At the time, we already understood that seniors did not want to see discrimination based on age. I asked you that question the first day I arrived in the House of Commons. When I asked you why people should not be given an increase in their old age security pension at age 65, instead of age 75, I remember you coming across the floor and telling me that it was a good question.

Then the pandemic hit and seniors had to deal with isolation. There was an increase in the price of groceries and the “COVID-19 tax”. We all saw increases in rent and transportation costs. Everyone experienced an increase in costs. There were announcements for various groups in our society, but seniors were ignored.

The Bloc Québécois had to hammer home its message about the importance of increasing the purchasing power of seniors. Finally, a one-time $500 cheque was provided, but only to those receiving the guaranteed income supplement. People who were receiving an old age security pension, but not the guaranteed income supplement, only received a cheque for $300. Again, there was a lot of frustration.

After last fall's Speech from the Throne, the 10% increase starting at the age of 75 was finally included in the budget, but it will not be implemented until 2022. A one-time $500 cheque was also offered in August 2021.

Madam Minister, seniors are still angry. What you are proposing is clearly not good enough for them. I have heard you talk about aging with dignity. But seniors' groups, including FADOQ in my community, are telling me that, in order to age with dignity, to live and not just survive, the old age security pension for all seniors must be increased as soon as they turn 65.

You said yourself that their savings are depleted. That happens from the time they stop working, which is at 65. You talked about the number of people working, but there are also people not working.

Do you know what it would cost to give people the 10% increase in the old age security pension at age 65 instead of age 75? Do you have any figures on that?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

I thank you and your colleague very much. Every time you stand up in the House, I get excited that I might be getting a question on seniors and have a chance to share a bit of the work we've been doing. I always look forward to your questions.

You set a lot of elements in motion in your question. I want to make sure that we touch on a few of them.

Let's go back to early days in the Liberal government. What we have been doing is building up measures that have been enhancing financial security for seniors, starting with reversing the Conservative change. They were “modernizing” the pension system and they increased OAS eligibility to age 67. Right away, we saw there that early pensioners—

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Madam Minister, I repeat the question—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Larouche, you took three and a half minutes to ask your question. We must give the minister a chance to answer.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Okay.

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

I will get there. I just wanted to make sure that you understand that none of these things are done in isolation. They're done as part of a series of steps we have been taking to enhance the financial security of seniors. That has provided results. We have seen a reduction of 11% in seniors' poverty. These are important things. The facts speak for themselves. We are making changes that are making a difference in the lives of seniors.

Right away, the first thing we did was to make sure that those seniors aged 65 to 67 weren't going to be disadvantaged when they couldn't work any longer or were unable to work any longer but wouldn't be getting a pension, which they would be relying on. That was the first step.

The second one was looking at very vulnerable seniors—our lowest-income seniors, single seniors—and being able to help them by providing almost $1,000. It was a 10% improvement, an enhancement to the guaranteed income supplement for them. We also enhanced the pension system, the CPP, by providing over a 50% increase for future seniors. Quebec stepped up and mirrored that.

These are the steps that we've been taking.

Just so you know, for the low-income seniors on the guaranteed income supplement, we changed the eligibility criteria. There are quite a few things that we've been doing to try to help seniors.

Now, let's get on to what we did during the pandemic, because you touched on that. It was important to make sure we provided support to those seniors who were dealing with the extra costs of getting services because they were isolating at home. Those seniors were, as you mentioned, provided $300 and an additional $200 if they were on the guaranteed income supplement. That is what we were doing during the pandemic—but it wasn't just about money. Some seniors were telling us that they had money but they needed help.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I'm going to interrupt, Minister.

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

You're going to interrupt. I've run out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Go ahead and wrap it up. Just finish your thought.

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

Very quickly, I just want to make sure that it is understood that these are steps that have been building. We haven't been ignoring any seniors. We've been building on a package, as we promised in our platform, to help seniors who are older and are facing more challenges, who have more health care costs and who need help. Their savings are running out because they're living longer.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

Next is Ms. Gazan, please, for six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair. I'd like to thank the minister for joining us today.

You mentioned the $300 and $200. We're now at year two of the pandemic, and your government, again, has only provided a one-time $300 payment for those who receive the OAS and an additional $200 for individuals receiving the GIS. This equates to providing most seniors—the most at risk during this time—with just $17.65 per month in support. I find this concerning. From my perspective, when you match that with the $120 million in support for Imperial Oil and the $70 million for Husky Energy, as two examples, your government has shown a real disregard for seniors.

Why do you believe it's appropriate to provide seniors, the most impacted by the pandemic, with such little direct support when you provide millions and millions, in fact, billions—there was $18 billion for TMX pipeline—in support to big oil and big corporations?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

I think you're comparing with the wage subsidy that we provided to organizations to try to help them keep employees on the payroll. It was very important for them not to lose their jobs and to stay connected to their employers during challenging times.

What we've done for seniors is mis-characterized the way you've presented it. The lowest-income seniors, the ones you're talking about, were provided $300 and then an additional $200 if they were on the guaranteed income supplement. These are our lowest-income seniors.

Just to be clear, if you add that to the GST top-up that was provided, it would have provided a low-income senior couple more than $1,500 of tax-free money to help them get through. That is not an insignificant amount of assistance, and that was providing double the amount of money that was committed in our platform to help seniors, so it is really significant.

As I was saying before in response to the previous question, it's not just about money. We put a billion dollars on the table for community groups to help seniors get meals, to get help to get to medical appointments, to be able to get tablets. They actually provided tablets and low-cost, even no-cost, access to the Internet and services for free so that they could get the supports they needed. We were also able to pay in the early days for volunteers to go out to connect with seniors and help deliver services, supports and food to them.

Half a billion dollars of on-the-ground support, plus direct tax-free funding to support seniors was a significant amount of support, which we provided to Canadian seniors.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Minister, it's $17.65 in addition per month.

In 2021, in the budget implementation bill, your government has proposed providing a one-time payment of $500 in August 2021 to OAS for those 75 years of age and older, and increasing the OAS for individuals 75 and over by 10% as of July 2022. If the government is trying to target seniors most in need—might I add, mostly women who don't benefit from a pension—why have you not specifically aimed OAS increases at low-income seniors?

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

I want to touch back on the math that you've quoted yet again. The math that you keep quoting does not reflect the reality of what the low-income seniors received. When you add the GST top-up and you add the guaranteed income supplement benefit—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Minister, can you please answer my question? You're not answering my question.

Thank you.

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

No, of course I will. I'll be happy to do so, but I do need to correct—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I've asked you another question, Minister.

Thank you.

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

I know, but I need to correct errors when they're restated.

One thing that is important, if you look at the measure for those seniors 75 and above, is that we have more women. Women tend to outlive men. Women tend to have spent time looking after the kids and, therefore, their pensions are not as good. Also, when their partners pass, unfortunately, they get a 60% reduction in that pension and often many didn't have much of their own pension.

What we are seeing, then, with our measure of 75 and above, is that for those seniors it is affecting the women more than men and is benefiting the women.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Minister, what research study or model did you use to determine that seniors—particularly, we know, a certain group, certainly in the BIPOC community, have a shorter life expectancy—should only receive the increase at 75 years of age? We know that there are many seniors who are living in poverty between the ages of 65 and 74. Why are they being excluded?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Give a brief answer, if you could, Minister.

[Deb Schulte, Liberal, King—Vaughan, ON]

Very briefly, you have to take this measure in conjunction with the other measures that we were doing all along to help seniors' financial security. We already took a step to help the lowest-income seniors on the guaranteed income supplement, and then in budget 2019 we also helped further by changing the earnings exemption.

There are steps that we've been taking to look after those who are low-income seniors, and steps now that we're taking to support the older seniors who are facing the real issue of running out of savings, because they're living longer than ever before. They are facing more disabilities, more risk of being widowed and are at real financial risk of running out of their savings.

Thank you.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Minister.