Human Resources Committee on June 3rd, 2021

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

My first questions are for Réseau.

In response to the Liberal government's announcement about increasing the payment to seniors over the age of 74 and excluding seniors age 65 to 74, you joined forces with the Canadian Association of Retired Persons and the National Association of Federal Retirees, collectively representing more than one million seniors, to call out the federal government on this.

You called for raising the old age security benefit by 10% for all eligible seniors. Can you tell us why you called for this change and how you arrived at this number?

[Danis Prud'homme]

Yes, of course. Thank you for the question.

It is actually very simple. The government put forward the argument that it wanted to help seniors who were most in need. That is why this measure focused on seniors aged 75 and over.

However, we feel that this measure will not help only those in need, as people are entitled to the old age security pension until their annual income reaches $77,000. Had the government really wanted to help people in need, it should have increased the guaranteed income supplement generally, for seniors aged 65 and over.

For starters, old age security makes no distinction among age groups; the minimum age of 65 is the only consideration. Now that the decision has been made to split old age security in two, two classes of seniors have been created. Unfortunately, that decision is a major mistake, as it will not help those most in need.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

When you say the most needed, can you expand on that?

[Danis Prud'homme]

In fact, those who need it the most are those whose only income comes from old age security and the guaranteed income supplement. Their annual income is about $18,500.

According to the market basket measure, people should have an income between $19,500 and $21,000, depending on where they live, and that amount is just enough to survive.

In addition to not helping those who need help the most, increasing the old age security pension only for seniors aged 75 and over will benefit many people who do not need that increase right now.

[Gisèle Tassé-Goodman]

In light of what Mr. Prud’homme just said, let me add that people receiving old age security and the guaranteed income supplement are struggling to pay for their medication and cover their grocery bill at the end of the month. Some have even told me that, when they get to the checkout, they would remove items from their grocery basket. They also don't have the means to pay for dental hygiene appointments. They have to pay increasingly high bills for rent, communications and support materials, among other things. Those are all important goods and services that guaranteed income supplement claimants cannot afford, as they have an annual income of $18,500. Everything becomes a luxury for them.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I agree with both of you, and I have deep concerns about the level of poverty in which seniors in this country, including women, live. We often talk about seniors working their whole lives. Many women worked at home and don't benefit from pension plans, and many women, particularly seniors, live in poverty. There are certainly heightened rates of poverty among certain groups, such as Black and indigenous people and people of colour.

In saying that, one of the things I put forward in this past session was a motion in support of a guaranteed livable basic income in addition to programs and support. This means taking the current guaranteed income and making it livable, in addition to providing other programs and support. Unfortunately, our bill in support of universal pharmacare was voted down.

Do you think that putting in place a guaranteed livable basic income, in addition to current and future government programs and supports, would be a game-changer for seniors in this country?

[Danis Prud'homme]

Thank you for the question.

In briefs we have submitted to the government when we appeared before other committees, we suggested three different possibilities. For instance, the market basket measure could be adjusted by 7% or, as you just said, an adequate income could be established as defined by IRIS, the Institut de recherche et d'informations socioéconomique. So possibilities do exist. It is a fact that not everything has been taken into consideration.

For people with a low income or low savings, we have even asked the federal government not to tax the money they withdraw from their RRSPs for eye care or dental care. We have been asking for this for a number of years, but the federal government has still not responded.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Ms. Gazan.

Thank you, Mr. Prud'homme.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Next we have Mr. Tochor, please, for five minutes.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Today, we are talking a lot about the different classes of seniors, unfortunately, that the last budget changed. We were discussing the OAS increase. Ms. Tassé-Goodman, you brought it up, but we didn't talk about the GIS.

Would you agree that it would be fairer to increase the GIS versus the OAS?

[Danis Prud'homme]

Thank you for the question.

Had the government wanted to take care of those most in need both among people aged 65 to 74 and those aged 75 and over, it should have used this approach.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Ms. Tassé-Goodman.

[Gisèle Tassé-Goodman]

What our organization's director general just said is true. At the very least, the guaranteed income supplement should have been increased by $50 a month because it goes to the less fortunate.

In any case, as Mr. Prud'homme said previously, when old age security claimants have an annual income from $77,000 to $120,000—I no longer recall the exact numbers—there is a return. The amount is not the same for someone who receives $30,000 as for a person receiving more than $75,000.

So we are asking the federal government to at least increase the guaranteed income supplement by $50 a month, for the less fortunate.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

That supports some of the reports we are hearing in the media about the pandemic relief having gone to the most well off versus going to families and seniors who need help the most. That's where I question why that was done and especially for that age group.

My office has been talking with seniors, and it's more the younger seniors who are in tougher financial situations than the older seniors. You'll find low-income seniors in every age group. If you were going to design a program.... Let's think about those who are under 75 years of age versus the ones who are older, It's not just the years they would have worked, and perhaps accumulated more savings; it's the lower-income seniors who are retiring or have retired in the last five years for whom I feel the worst.

The last time our country was facing runaway inflation, they experienced hyperinflation with fewer dollars. They had more debt, such as mortgages. What occurred was that once interest rates skyrocketed for those individuals back in the 1980s, their savings accounts were negatively affected by inflation more so than older seniors. For older seniors who went through that time period and were fortunate enough to have had work at that time, they were actually better off. I question why the Liberals have drawn that line and made two different classes.

It brings up the point of inflation, and you talked about it before. What are you hearing from seniors anecdotally? The cost of living is up. They're making different decisions. I'd like to hear if you have some first-hand stories of what decisions seniors are making, because of inflation and the increase in the cost of living.

[Gisèle Tassé-Goodman]

Mr. Prud'homme, I will let you answer.

[Danis Prud'homme]

There are actually several considerations.

The number of choices seniors must make is growing for two reasons.

First, the cost of groceries has increased tremendously, according to what we have been told, as has the cost of grocery deliveries, as seniors are no longer mobile in some cases.

Second, seniors have found themselves isolated. They no longer had visits, and so they no longer had help, either. The lack of access to technology has also contributed to their isolation. In more remote regions, where there was no [technical difficulties]. In some villages, grocery stores, Canada Post offices and bank branches closed their doors. Finally, seniors found themselves even more isolated and even poorer, and that has resulted in additional costs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Tochor.

We're going to Mr. Vaughan for five minutes.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

It's great to see the Conservatives supporting the boost to the guaranteed income supplement. They voted against it, of course, when we did it in the last mandate, which was a landmark move to help reduce seniors poverty. I'm glad they're coming on board to understand that seniors need this help now.

I'd like to ask Deb Shime about some of the collective efforts and the individual efforts.

Of course, individual transfers are important, but Dr. Kuperman from McMaster was here earlier as a witness. He said that there was a real pivot point at the end of August and the beginning of September in terms of major indicators that he was following around seniors health. This is interesting, because in the first wave of support for seniors in the pandemic, we increased direct transfers to seniors, but we were convinced by the provinces that they needed support, too, so we did a block transfer with the safe restart agreement that kicked in for September. It was a $22-billion transfer to the provinces.

Did you receive funding from provincial governments at that point to sustain and extend your services through the safe restart agreements?

[Debra Shime]

We did not at United Way Centraide. We're the national office, and I can't speak to it. We can gather that information from our United Way locals to see if they received any provincial funding for services in their community.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Direct transfers for long-term care were part of that block funding as well. Doug Ford, in our province of Ontario, boasted that he was going to put an “iron ring” around long-term care with these new federal dollars, but we saw even worse results in the second wave than we saw in the first wave. The only real iron ring that was put around seniors residences was a legal one, which prevents families from suing for neglect of care.

Did you see any long-term care specific engagements from the provinces or were we better to spend our money directly with front-line services than with transfers to provinces?

[Debra Shime]

As I referenced in my comments, we really work with seniors living at home, so my area of expertise and the information I gather from our locals do not address the issues and challenges of long-term care. I would leave that for others who are better equipped to speak to that specifically.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

On aging in place, there are some who say we should do direct transfers to individuals through CPP and OAS and just send people individual cheques. In terms of seniors, we also heard that the collective action—engagement in social settings, physical activity, being checked-in—and the community care were as critical to seniors' health and outcomes.

In that regard, is it just a question of transfers or a question of dollar amounts being sent in cheques, or do we need to also build systems that provide additional supports to help people age in place?

[Debra Shime]

Thanks for the question.

Yes, I think my comment alluded to the fact that we need to continue to support the community-led community organizations across the country in order for them to have the infrastructure and the adaptive programming to respond to and to support seniors living at home and their families—their caregivers explicitly.

Creating that fabric of a network of organizations across the community is essential, and not only for those organizations and their services. They're often the ones to support and engage volunteers in being active in their community.

We want seniors aging at home as much as they possibly can, and we need to build the infrastructure to support them. Many times, that comes through organizations [ Technical difficulty—Editor].

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

If you have mobility issues, you may have a cheque to go to the grocery store, but if you can't get up or down the stairs to get to the kitchen or out of the house to get to the supermarket, if you don't have the supports around to realize the menu, there's no point in having money if you can't get to the grocery store or cook and clean afterwards.