Human Resources Committee on Nov. 19th, 2020

[Arlene Hache]

Thank you.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

My last question is for Chief Haymond.

Often governments speak about indigenous people as “vulnerable”, without recognizing that indigenous peoples have been made vulnerable by colonial policies. This continues today, and we know this through massive, systemic underfunding of our communities.

In your opinion, do you believe that the willful violation of indigenous peoples' right to housing is one of the reasons our communities are faced with this dire crisis during COVID?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Give a brief answer if you could, please, Chief.

[Chief Lance Haymond]

The simple answer to your question is, absolutely yes. The fact that we have a high incidence of overcrowding, not having enough units to meet the demographic growth, is contributing greatly to the increased issues that first nations have to deal with. In some communities, people are not able to self-isolate when there is an incident of the pandemic, and communities have had to be creative in finding solutions.

The answer to your question is simply, yes it is.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Chief.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, Ms. Gazan.

Next we're going to go to Mr. Vis for five minutes.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Chief Haymond, you mentioned earlier that with CMHC it was barely possible to build 60 units.

For the sake of the committee, can you outline in a little more detail the challenges you've faced with CMHC in reference to building homes in northern and rural areas for indigenous people?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

The issue really relates to CMHC having a national budget and that budget being allocated proportionally across the country. Quebec receives 7% of the national budget, which ranges, on average, from about $140 million to $200 million a year. Based on that 7% and the amount of funds available in the region, that is the number of units we can build with that funding. Lifetime costs are important.

I must come back to speak a bit about the relationship we have in Quebec with CMHC and ISC. We are the only region in this country that has the tripartite committee, where CMHC, AFNQL and ISC representatives sit down around a table three times a year. We develop a work plan and we work collaboratively together to maximize that funding so that we are building the units we do. There's no other jurisdiction or province in this country that has that relationship, and it has been beneficial.

The reality is that we need more money into the system. With Quebec's share being only 7% of the national budget, it means that the number of units we can build is limited by that amount.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

That's very helpful.

Another comment that you made today is that the provincial New Democrat government in B.C.—I'm assuming—is making up for the federal shortcomings.

From your perspective, can you elaborate on what the B.C. government is doing well or how it has stepped up to the plate to account for the shortcomings of the federal government?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

In B.C., there's a particular reality with over 200 first nations communities. Again, knowing that the needs far outstretch the budgets because of chronic underfunding, the government in B.C. made a decision that it was going to invest $550 million to support housing being built on reserve.

I may have misused the terms “covering off” or “filling the gap”. I think the province recognized that the funding from federal departments alone wasn't meeting the needs. With some good lobbying by the B.C. chiefs, they were able to convince the government to invest in housing on reserve. Again, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, if you can address issues upstream, it sure makes it easier to address the other social ills we have to live with within the communities.

I think what B.C. has done is a nice project that can be replicated in other provinces and jurisdictions. The real challenge is whether there's the political will to support on-reserve housing. Our experience has always been that Quebec will look at us and say, “On-reserve housing is a federal jurisdiction, but we can help you address some of your off-reserve housing needs through our housing department, SHQ.”

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Okay. There are some challenges with distinctions-based funding.

Secondly, from what I'm hearing from you right now—you can tell me if this is correct or not—the federal government and maybe we as committee members need to pay a little more attention not just to the proportionality of funds going to provinces and territories, but also to specific needs in regions across Canada in accounting for, say, the unique challenges you face in the north, or that they might face in my riding in a very remote rural area.

Is that correct?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

It's partially correct. I think there's an opportunity to change that formula. The key driver of that formula—as it should be—is core housing need. Regions that have higher core housing needs and larger indigenous populations get a larger proportion of the budget, which, you know, at the end of the day makes sense.

For Quebec, being a small region with a small number of communities and only 7% of the budget, again, it's a fundamental challenge. It's based on the fact that this is the national allocation model, and the main criterion is the core housing need.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Vis, and thank you, Chief.

Our last questioner for today is going to be Mr. Vaughan from the Liberals, for five minutes, please.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Thank you very much.

To the chief, that 7% number is driven by the population inside the Indian Act. The non-status indigenous peoples outside in urban spaces aren't counted and are therefore not part of that calculation. Is that right?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

No, that's not right. We provide our membership numbers to Indigenous Services on an annual basis. My understanding is that budgets are allocated based on those numbers. Then again, the main driver is core need.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Right, but if you're not a member of a band council and you're Mi'kmaq, say, and you've moved to Montreal, you wouldn't be counted in that calculation. Your allocation may actually be counted back in Nova Scotia if you belong to a reserve in Nova Scotia.

[Chief Lance Haymond]

Yes, that's correct.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Right.

In terms of your building projects, have you ever built housing outside of your reserve?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

We have not. No.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Not in Montreal or in Val-d'Or nearby, say, or in any of the regional centres?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

No. Again, it's mainly because the financial resources are not enough for us to deal with on reserve—

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Right.

[Chief Lance Haymond]

—and again, it's really hard to extrapolate and provide services to your off-reserve population when they're spread across the province and across the country.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

While the AFN allotment and certainly the Quebec allotment for your reserve need to be strengthened, there also needs to be a parallel program to deal with indigenous people regardless of which province they come from who now reside in Quebec. There needs to be that fourth option available to indigenous people in Quebec as well. Would you agree?