Human Resources Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2020

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes, thanks very much. If you look at all the COVID funding that's been disbursed to date, we comprise 5% of the Canadian population, yet we've received less than 1% of the funding. That systemic racism piece is certainly reality.

With regard to this underfunding of indigenous communities, do you feel that you currently have sufficient resources to be able to guarantee the right to housing for each person accessing your services?

[Marcel Lawson-Swain]

No, not at all. We're extremely underfunded in the work we're doing. I want to comment on the point that you made with respect to allocation methodologies that have been utilized by government, in particular the federal and provincial government over the years. If we're 40% of the homeless population, and we never get 40% of the funding. Just like the example you gave of the COVID funding, if we're only getting 1% though we're 5% of the population, it seems a little unfair.

I think we need to start looking at what we can do to ameliorate the conditions in Canada. We need to go above and beyond what other Canadians are getting and we need to get indigenous communities up to par and on the same level of suffering as all other populations. If 5% of the majority of the population is homeless, we want to be brought down from 35% to 5%. To make that happen is going to take additional funding. We know and understand that additional funding can be made available like in emergency situations—like we are all in around the world, dealing with COVID. The amount of support and funding that has been provided by the federal government hasn't been enough since World War II. We need to recognize that we're in urgent situations in our urban, indigenous and remote communities across the country, and we need to do more to address that, with funding to address it adequately.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Lawson-Swain, and Ms. Gazan.

Next, we have Mr. Vis, please, for five minutes.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you so much.

My questions are for Mr. Leon, who does live in Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon. The reason I invited you to committee today, Mr. Leon, is what you said earlier in your testimony, that there are 1,200 people on reserve right now but only 198 homes. That's an average of six people per home.

What I do know about Sts'ailes First Nation and what I appreciate is that you're so proactive in reaching out to the broader community. You did that with the former MP and you have done that with me. Relationships matter to you, and that's why I brought you here today, because your words mean a lot and they need to be shared.

One of the questions I have for you today is this. Do you believe that Sts'ailes First Nation has sufficient human and financial resources to develop project proposals? And generally how long does it take for ISC or CMHC to get back to you when you apply for a project?

[Chief Ralph Leon Jr.]

I think ISC is a little behind. They have to look after every community in the province of B.C., and we are one of the largest communities and they just can't keep up with our needs. It's almost like they don't need to be in existence. Why? Because a lot of our funds that come from Ottawa go to Victoria, go to them, and then by the time it gets to us, the percentage goes down. Here in Sts'ailes, if we lose a loved one and need to have a funeral, we have to shut down our school. Why? Because we have nowhere else to go. We need the gymnasiums. We've been communicating with ISC and the former MP for years. Words need to turn into action and that's why I reached out to you, Brad, because I hear your voice is loud for governance, as it needs to be.

It's pretty disheartening. We wrote the Prime Minister letters and the only letter we received was that he can't make time for us and he can't come to Sts'ailes. So we need—

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I'm sorry. I just want to get another question in, but I hear you.

You guys have a small but pretty dedicated administrative staff at Sts'ailes. How many hours in general, or how many days or weeks, does it take to apply just to get a single house built?

[Chief Ralph Leon Jr.]

Our housing worker, our housing director, probably puts in many hours over and above the time they get paid. Why? Because we can't put it in the budget. We can't pay them overtime because it's not in the budget. The Indian agent came here and said, “You only have this much money. You can only build this much, in this time, and that's it.”

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

What would you say—this is a little radical for some—if we cut out all of the administrative people at ISC in Ottawa and just gave you a direct transfer that included all of the salaries of those peoples that were dedicated to allotting you money? What if we just gave you all that money and let you take care of it yourself from both an operational and administrative capacity? Do you think your people would get better outcomes if there were more direct transfers or long-term funding models?

[Chief Ralph Leon Jr.]

I believe so. We're in a 10-year grant funding program with the federal government through the AFN. I think we're ready to do that. We're educated enough to do that. We know how to count to 10. We know how to read English. We're getting pretty good. I think we're ready for that. That's an awesome—

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

You guys received some specific financial designations as well. Do you want to speak to that quickly and to why they should just give you more money, and less through Ottawa?

[Chief Ralph Leon Jr.]

With the 10-year grant funding program, we have to prove to the government that we can develop a financial law, that we can come up with the policy and procedures and be accountable to our people as well as the AFN and the federal government. We've proven ourselves already that we can be financially stable.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

So you have demonstrated capacity but are still required, time and time again, to submit those long applications.

[Chief Ralph Leon, Jr.]

Yes.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Vis.

Ms. Young, you have five minutes, please.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses today. We're getting some really good information.

Ms. McGee, I want to pick up on what you said a little earlier, that “we don't know what we don't know” in terms of data collection. There's been quite a movement toward indigenous organizations conducting their own research to get the data and information that is ethically collected and managed and made available for use by indigenous people. In your view, what role should indigenous people and organizations play in collecting that data on indigenous housing needs?

[Susan McGee]

I think it's a really important principle that supports the need for indigenous-led organizations doing the work. Data sovereignty is important. I think a lot of reports and research cite information about other people that they didn't participate in providing. There are organizations in Canada that have really been evolving and leading in that space, largely with the national emphasis on data and how important it is.

Really, from a principles perspective, one thing that comes to mind in terms of why it is so important that this work is indigenous-led and that data sovereignty is important is that good decision-making is informed by data. When indigenous organizations lead in that work, we check those boxes. We make sure that the ability to inform that work, when it's indigenous-led, does not conflict with some of the issues we run into when that's not the case.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

What steps should we take to make sure that indigenous people are meaningfully involved in data collection?

[Susan McGee]

Again, the most important thing is that it's indigenous led and shaped from the beginning. I think there are steps that organizations, in partnering with indigenous organizations, should be complying with so that the entire structure, when we're collecting data, is indigenous led and informed. I know that this work is big work when we're talking very specifically about those indigenous-led initiatives, but there isn't anything that can happen, when we're doing planning for addressing homelessness needs, that doesn't somehow touch on indigenous communities. I think it's an important lens to apply to everything. Certainly, there are lots of partners that can help inform that work nationally.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

I'm not sure who would be best to answer this.

Ms. McGee, you might want to take it on. I'm talking about hidden homelessness, and certainly youth, LGBTQ and two-spirit youth, and the problems around that, and whether you see that as a growing problem and something that we need to tackle as well.

[Susan McGee]

It's certainly a growing problem and one that is important to really, fully understand. Mr. Swain mentioned the aging out of care concerns that contribute to long-term experiences of homelessness. We've participated in and supported Native Counselling Services of Alberta's production of a video really specifically about hidden homelessness and indigenous youth. What is important about that project is that it was a conversation. There was an approach to discussing the issue in circle, and really, the experiences and the very tricky experiences of people, in terms of obstacles as well as opportunities. That kind of lens, I think, can be shared with the committee, and probably more broadly shared. We generate a lot of information and maybe we don't hit all the right audiences. That all came about because it is such a significant concern in our community.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

Mr. Lawson-Swain, could I ask you the same question about the hidden homelessness issue, and specifically for young people, and even more specifically for LGBTQ and two-spirit youth?

[Marcel Lawson-Swain]

Sure. Thank you for the question.

This is often something that we try to address nationally. The hidden homeless are rarely counted in the point-in-time counts. Hidden homelessness generally affects the broader community, but in particular, for women and children, and youth aging out of foster care, this is a big issue.

The other thing is that you have to understand our family makeup. Our families won't turn people out of their homes if people come to them for a place to stay because they're homeless. Also, the families themselves don't highlight the fact that they have additional people living in their housing units, because they're often living in social housing or affordable housing, which means that they're going to be evicted by their landlord for having too many people, based on occupancy standards. They won't bring to light the fact that they have additional people living with them in their homes.

I can't speak for the LGBTQ community. I'm not an expert in dealing with the community you're speaking of, but I do know that there are people, not a large number, who are in precarious positions here in Vancouver and throughout the country. Those are situations of violence and of people fleeing family violence and that kind of thing. Often, if people aren't telling others that they're from an LGBTQ community, they're not exposing themselves in that way. When they're in shelters or in any other places, they're at risk for violence. Often they're just not going to those spaces to be counted in the first place. It's a very difficult place to be for youth, women and LGBTQ communities. They're often not counted in the point-in-time counts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Lawson-Swain.

Thank you, Ms. Young.