Human Resources Committee on Feb. 12th, 2024

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

I'm questioning his comment about—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mrs. Roberts, that's not a point of order.

Continue, Ms. Mackenzie.

[Isobel Mackenzie]

Thank you.

I think that issue is something that is going to continue to be part of the discussion when we look at longer years of life, healthier years of life and total time in the labour force, because what is happening is that people are entering the full-time paid labour force at a later age, so what are the consequences of that? What is the totality of government policies needed to support all of that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Thank you, Ms. Mackenzie.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor now for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm sad to see petty politics being played out at the expense of seniors. That's how I see it.

Ms. Mackenzie, the purpose of the current bill is to remedy an inequality in the OAS pension. I'll put it bluntly by saying that the government decided in 2022 to increase OAS by 10% for seniors aged 75 and over, but did not increase it for seniors aged 65 to 74.

Do you think this inequality creates significant disparities for seniors aged 65 to 74?

[Isobel Mackenzie]

Yes, I fully support the move to increase the OAS by 10% for seniors aged 65 to 75, absolutely.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

In Quebec, seniors spend nearly 50% of their income—I believe it's around 40%—on three major expenses, which are housing, food and transportation.

Ms. Watts, from the equity standpoint, how do you feel about the fact that OAS is not being increased for people on fixed incomes, at a time when inflation is rampant?

[Laura Tamblyn Watts]

I think having these two divisions is a significant problem, both because of the inequality on the face of it and because of people like Mary, who say that it's the quality of life between 65 and 74 that allows for the quality of life for 75 and older. It doesn't just create inequality on the face of it; it creates substantive inequality. This is especially true if we're talking about people with frailty, people with disabilities, people who are newcomers to Canada and others. There are many levels of discrimination that are impacted in this particular choice.

It's our hope that the government sees that things have moved enough that they should bring everybody back up to the same position.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

In the same vein, you mentioned quality of life. To what extent would increasing OAS for seniors over 65 improve their quality of life?

[Laura Tamblyn Watts]

As my previous colleagues have mentioned, the amount of public pension is extremely modest. We know that people who are living on only public pensions struggle. They are at or below poverty levels.

The way we calculate seniors poverty is also problematic, so there are many people who are not captured with visibility, which my colleague Isobel spoke of before. I know the government is rethinking its market basket measure.

All of this is to say that if you can't stay well between 65 and 74, the cost to this government, the cost to individual well-being, and the physical money that people will pay out of pocket for their own home care, health, supports and nutrition will be problematic. It's going to mean that people are going to be increasingly frail and increasingly isolated.

Is it enough? No. Will it make a difference? Yes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I understood from your testimony that you also agreed to allowing an increase in retiree employment income without reducing their GIS benefits.

Do you think increasing that from $5,000 to $6,500 is adequate?

[Laura Tamblyn Watts]

I would say that it is a step in the right direction.

Many of us, as we age, need to go back to the workforce or want to go back to the workforce. Clawback provisions need to be indexed to the realities of our economic situation.

We are supportive of the change to $6,500. We would continue to encourage the government to think flexibly about how we earn and draw pensions in retirement, in ways that will be reflective of increased longevity for Canadians.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

You heard the arguments in favour of this distinction, and the government's arguments on that score as well, to the effect that seniors aged 65 to 74 were better off. They would accordingly not need to have their pensions increased.

Do you feel that seniors aged 65 to 74 are better off?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

The interpretation—

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

You don't have the interpretation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madame Chabot, please continue.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Ms. Tamblyn Watts, do you feel that seniors aged 65 to 74 are better off than others and don't need to have their OAS pensions increased?

[Laura Tamblyn Watts]

No, I do not agree. It's not the circumstance that we see.

If there are real concerns about people unduly getting money they don't deserve, that's why we have clawback provisions. That's why we have the GIS.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Chabot and Ms. Tamblyn Watts.

Ms. Zarrillo, go ahead for six minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first questions are for Ms. Mackenzie.

I just want to thank you so much for your service and also for your expertise that you've shared over the years. I feel quite fortunate to have this opportunity to ask you some questions today.

As a woman in Parliament, I often try to put a gender lens on things. My question is really about women being more at risk of poverty in retirement due to a number of factors. I'm wondering what you've heard in research and in the work that you do from senior women on their ability to cover costs in the two different age groups—the 65 to 74 and the 75-plus.

[Isobel Mackenzie]

Yes, women are disproportionately disadvantaged for a number of reasons, all of which will be intuitive to most of you and are backed up by the numbers. They're less likely to have spent their maximum years in the labour force and less likely to have been working at the maximum insurable earnings for those years. All have taken time out. We've made an adjustment for the family, increasingly leaving early to care for aging parents and then an aging spouse.

The dynamic that we're still seeing and will continue to see, probably over the next cohort and maybe the one after that, is the spousal pension income from the husband being a more significant contribution. As the male life expectancy is less, seniors are more likely to be left a widow than a widower. That plays out in the lower incomes as well, and you see that in the tax filer data very clearly.

The other burden, in addition to the cost, is just the burden overall on women of being caregivers. It's not universal, but on the balance of probability, women are more likely to be caregivers.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Mackenzie.

I recently received correspondence from someone in my riding. I have a caregiver mailer that recently went out in my riding, and I got a lot of feedback about people who are looking after an aging spouse, and they are under 75. There are many costs that seem to go along with that.

Has it been your experience with the seniors you've spoken to that there's a lot more caregiving happening among women under 75 than there is among women over 75?

[Isobel Mackenzie]

Yes, and that's borne out, in a number of surveys we do, by who answers the surveys and what their age is.

If somebody is in their nineties and has a family caregiver, it's probably their daughter, who is a senior of 65 or 68 years of age. Often, she will have left the paid labour force earlier, in terms of retirement, than she would otherwise have done if she didn't have to care for that aging parent.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Are they in need of income supports like OAS at that time?

[Isobel Mackenzie]

Absolutely.