Human Resources Committee on May 9th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Gray.

I have Mr. Fragiskatos for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the minister and officials for being here.

Minister, you just mentioned the Canada child benefit. What are the most recent numbers on the number of kids who have been lifted out of poverty as a result of the benefit?

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

Undoubtedly, the Canada child benefit has been incredibly impactful, and we're seeing 3.5 million fewer people in poverty as a result.

These are dollars that help families each and every month, offsetting what we know are the expensive costs of raising a family. Most of us around this table have children. We experience that. It's expensive to have a young family. We have the Canada child benefit coming in each and every month, which I will point out is indexed to inflation each July, and our national child care program, saving thousands of dollars for child care if you need it, if you participate, and the Canada dental benefit, and now, of course, we're moving forward with pharmacare. Our government has a record of ensuring that we support families through all stages of their life.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to pivot to child care now. Could you speak to the fact that the child care program that we see unfolding across the country is quite nuanced and takes into account the fact that we have different approaches to child care and seeks to support those models wherever they exist? There are not-for-profits that benefit. There are for-profit organizations that benefit and home care models as well.

Could you speak to that? I think sometimes, when people hear about a child care program, they might think that it's just one thing. In fact, our government has realized that it's nuanced on the ground and that we have to recognize those nuances and offer support accordingly.

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

You're absolutely right; when we look across this country at how child care is delivered and the preferences of families across the country, there are differences. Whether you're rural, remote or urban, things are different. The system we are working to build with our partners, with the provinces and territories and indigenous partners, offers parents incredible choice.

First of all, it's not a mandatory system. You have the choice of whether you choose to participate or not. If you do choose to seek child care through our system, there's still an abundance of choice. You could choose to put your child in a child care centre. You could choose to put your child in a family home day care. There are various options when it comes to for-profit or not-for-profit centres or care. You could choose to leave your child with a relative. You could choose to have in-home care with a nanny. All of these choices that existed prior to 2021 all exist. The difference is that they're now affordable.

Prior to the fee reduction, many families couldn't obtain child care. They couldn't afford to pay the rates. Arguably, they have more choice now, because they realize that it's within reach and they're able to afford the options we've put out.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I have one minute left, Minister, and I want to turn to the school food program.

I have constituents in London who are quite interested in this. Colleagues around the table will have been asked the same, I'm sure. What can we tell constituents back home on what to expect moving forward? There are 400,000 kids who stand to benefit as a result of what the government announced in budget 2024. What can we expect in the next few weeks and months as the school year comes around? When can that support be offered, and what would you tell organizations? For example, we have Growing Chefs! in London, a great not-for-profit that is already involved in helping with breakfast programs. How can they be further involved?

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

Through the chair, thank you for a great question

In the near term and our next step, obviously we need to get through our budget process here. Having said that, come early summer we will begin engaging with provinces and territories to negotiate those funding agreements. We will be putting forward the national school food policy in the next few months as well.

The opportunity for organizations such as the one you mentioned in your community is to ensure that the province recognizes the work they do and ensure that they grow the impact through the funding that we will be flowing through the province.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, what is Canada’s experience with school food? What do you know about it? What are you managing there? I think the answer will come down to “nothing,” because it falls under Quebec and the provinces.

That said, I will ask you some more questions.

What do you know about this area, about the terrain?

How many provinces other than Quebec have programs to support school food?

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

Thank you for your question.

Through the chair, you're absolutely right; at current, the provinces and territories have ownership and jurisdiction and have rolled out some form of school food.

Every province and territory is quite different. Quebec, to your point, has done fairly well. P.E.I. has done incredible work. We're seeing different provinces and territories start to step up and grow their investments alongside a number of non-profits and some corporate donations to help fund.

All of that is to say that our intention is to work with provinces and territories to increase that impact. It is ultimately, as you have said, the jurisdiction of the province to roll out and to oversee implementation of school food within the education system. But you have a willing federal government who is here and ready to support, ready to put dollars into building out a national system so that families across the country and children across the country can benefit.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

Do I still have some time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Of course, everyone agrees with the principle that no child should go to school on an empty stomach. I think that’s undeniable, and that’s why we invested in it. We can do it even better in Quebec.

You said you’ve not yet worked with Quebec and the provinces, even though it’s a 2021 campaign promise. We want Quebec to benefit from the right to opt out of this file with full compensation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Please provide a short answer, Madam Minister.

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

One point I would like to add is that you are correct. This was a commitment that was made in 2021 during the campaign. This is not the start of the work. This work has actually been ongoing over the last few years. There were extensive consultations undertaken across the country involving parents, involving kids, involving a number of key stakeholders. As we heard, last October we put out a report summarizing that, which will help to inform the policy as we move forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Chabot.

Mr. Angus, you have the floor for two and a half minutes to conclude.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

The issue of child care is definitely one of the key drivers of lack of affordability. We know that in Toronto it was about $1,000 a month per child. That just drove families out of the city.

The change to $10, I think, is dramatic. I think it's very progressive. The problem is that it's not addressing other elements of inequality and affordability, particularly for the people working in the sector.

I see two problems here. Since the $10 announcement was made, the wait times have just gone through the roof. Niagara region is up 76%. Prior to 2022, Kawartha Lakes had a 3.7-year wait to be on the list for a child. Now it's over 6.4 years, which means those children are going to be out of the system by that time.

What steps are you taking to deal with this massive backlog that we're seeing in our communities?

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

Great question. I noticed your reference was mostly Ontario.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes.

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

Okay, so in that case, speaking to what we are doing here in Ontario, we have an agreement with the province. I don't need to get into the details again. The province has committed to creating what I believe are 86,000 new spaces by the end of the agreement.

The biggest barrier as it stands right now—I will cite two perhaps. One, again, the province has not sat down with operators and hammered out a long-term funding formula that not only gives operators the assurance that they are sustainable and can cover their costs but also the certainty that they will be able to grow.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I have to interrupt you because I only have a few seconds left.

There's a March 15th report that just came out that talks about the perfect storm that's hitting child care in Ontario. One of the key indicators is that the wage paid is $19 an hour, which is not even close to a living wage. Twenty-five dollars is what you need. We're asking people to step up and look after children while paying them a pittance, and we cannot attract people.

What are the negotiations about ensuring that people have a proper wage so that we bring qualified people into the system?

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

Undoubtedly, we can't build this system without the workforce, without qualified, well-respected, well-compensated early childhood educators. Here in Ontario, to date, there has been some incremental progress.

I would point to Nova Scotia most recently, which brought forward wage increases as well as benefits and a defined pension contribution plan. We are seeing various provinces step up, not quite all, but there is work, obviously, to continue to support that and engage.

The last point I would make is that I convene a federal-provincial-territorial table on an annual basis. At the last table, there was a commitment by all provinces and territories to work together on a workforce strategy focused on retention, recruitment etc. That work is ongoing. I would expect that we will hear more about that in the fall, but there is wholeheartedly a need and a focus to make sure that the workforce is well supported and well compensated.

In our budget this year, 2024, we've also made some investments around student loan forgiveness for ECEs who choose to practise in rural areas.

I see that the chair is giving me my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Committee members, we have a few points to conclude before you leave.

Thank you, Madam Minister, for appearing, and thank you for recognizing the vision of my home province on food.

We'll excuse the minister and her staff.

The whole reason why we're here pursuant to Standing Order 81(4) is that a total of six votes for the main estimates were referred to this committee. The committee may choose to render decisions on each vote one at a time or, with unanimous consent, to call all the votes together. Is there unanimous consent to group the votes that we all discussed? I'm sure you were paying detailed attention to the numbers that were referred to here.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Shall vote 1 of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, votes 1 and 5 of the Canadian Accessibility Standards Development Organization, vote 1 of the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety, and votes 1 and 5 of the Department of Employment and Social development, less the respective amounts granted in interim supply, carry?

CANADA MORTGAGE AND HOUSING CORPORATION Vote 1—Reimbursement under the provisions..........$5,620,208,332

(Vote 1 agreed to)

CANADIAN ACCESSIBILITY STANDARDS DEVELOPMENT ORGANIZATION Vote 1—Operating expenditures..........$11,999,820 Vote 5—Grants and contributions..........$8,500,000

(Votes 1 and 5 agreed to)

CANADIAN CENTRE FOR OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY Vote 1—Program expenditures..........$6,320,572

(Vote 1 agreed to)

DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT Vote 1—Operating expenditures..........$1,296,715,593 Vote 5—Grants and contributions..........$10,185,640,405

(Votes 1 and 5 agreed to)

Shall I report the votes on the main estimates to the House?