Human Resources Committee on June 10th, 2024

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to ask Mr. Richter questions about the rental housing crisis that's happening in Alberta. I'm thinking specifically about Boardwalk.

I wonder, Mr. Richter, if you could share some of the things that are happening in Calgary and Edmonton with rental housing and homelessness and if you believe that the business practices of corporate landlords is contributing to that.

[Tim Richter]

I can't speak to that specifically, but I think it's important we remember that in the rental housing market about 40% of the overall market is owned by the REITs and 60% is owned by smaller companies and individual investors. Real estate income trusts can play a significant role, but they only really have an impact, I would say, in an undersupplied market or a market where there's really tight supply and very low vacancy. If there's lots of supply, individual market players can have less and less influence.

I will say, speaking specifically to Boardwalk, that prior to leading the Canadian Alliance to End Homelessness, I led the Calgary Homeless Foundation. Between 2008 and 2012, we housed about 4,000 people straight out of homelessness into permanent housing. I know that's also true across Alberta. We were able to create affordable housing and house those people, a lot of them in Boardwalk apartments.

In fact, we were able to reduce homelessness in Calgary for the first time since we were able to count that in the early 1990s. Alberta isn't—

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I'm sorry, Mr. Richter, but I'm going to have to cut you off.

Is that possible again, do you think?

[Tim Richter]

Is it possible to reduce with—

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Is it possible to have something like Boardwalk or different REITs solve the homelessness problem quickly and get people housed?

[Tim Richter]

Yes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

How would you do it?

[Tim Richter]

Housing first.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Okay.

I'm going to move to something else.

Mr. Chair, I know that this committee asked the CEO of Starlight Investments to come to the committee, and we heard back that it wasn't going to fit their schedule to come. Maybe it's a misunderstanding by the CEO of Starlight Investments, but this is a parliamentary committee and we work for Canadians. We really would like to have them here, and we wouldn't want to have to summons them, but it seems that we are going to have to.

I have a motion, Mr. Chair, that will be shared with the committee. I move:

That pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee summon the CEO of Starlight Investments, Daniel Drimmer, to appear before the committee by June 20, 2024, to testify in relation to the study on federal housing investments for a minimum of two hours.

In light of the testimony that we just had that they could be part of the solution, I think it's even more pressing.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I've been advised by the clerk that because the motion is technically in reference to the study we're doing, it does not require the 48 hours notice. It is, therefore, in order for Madam Zarrillo to move the motion.

We've come to the end anyhow, so I'll get back to the motion.

I just want to advise the witnesses that this concludes the first hour of testimony. You're free to leave while the committee discusses the item currently before it. Thank you for appearing today for this important study.

With that, we have Madam Zarrillo's motion. I have Mr. Fragiskatos and then Madame Chabot.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I was just going to ask for a suspension for a few minutes, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Okay. We'll suspend for two minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

I would like Ms. Zarrillo to send us her motion in writing during the break, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Chabot. Yes, it will be circulated while we're in suspension.

We'll suspend for three minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We are now back in session. We are still in the public portion of the meeting.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you had the floor.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

Just to ensure that we are all on the same page with respect to the request for Starlight to appear at the committee, what has been the correspondence from Starlight?

What have they said about appearing and why do they not want to appear?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I believe the letter was circulated to all committee members. Their reasoning was that the two items in the motion requesting them to come here are not relevant to their company.

It said, “Starlight Investments has never received any federal loans, including those for the purchase of rental properties; and...Starlight Investments is not seeking to evict any residents from 71, 75 and 79 Thorncliffe Park Drive”, which was the substance of why they were requested to appear.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

With that in mind, I would ask Ms. Zarrillo if she has information that would show otherwise because that's a pretty definitive statement to say that there's no federal involvement. However, I'd want to give Ms. Zarrillo the opportunity to respond to what they have said.

At the same time, I don't know if colleagues are open to this, but as I speak here, perhaps there's an opportunity for the company to appear as part of the study—as part of a panel of witnesses. We would still be able to hear from them. I don't know; I just canvassed that idea as I speak.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madame Chabot had her hand up.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I will let Ms. Zarrillo answer, of course.

Right off the bat, I honestly think there may be some rogue companies that are not following the regulations.

I hope that our committee's study will be constructive and help find solutions to the housing problem. However, I don't think that inviting companies like Starlight Enterprises to appear before the committee to find out what they are up to would be of any use to us. I don't see how that would help the committee achieve the objective of this study, which is to assess the impact of divestment.

My hope is that the witnesses we hear from propose solutions to the housing crisis.

I didn't see the point of inviting these companies, and I still don't.

I am opposed to the motion, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Zarrillo, you can respond.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for the clarity.

I'll start with Madame Chabot's concerns and questions.

I think what we've heard in this testimony is that there's been a shift from home ownership in this country to rental housing, which we know has happened over the decades and especially as housing prices have increased. We know that rental housing is an important factor.

We heard testimony today that there is an opportunity for the government to intervene in rental housing and make that happen, so I think it's important and it's relevant to the study that we dig into rental housing.

I did want to address the letter from Starlight. I'm actually on a site right now, renx.ca, where some of their properties are for sale. Here it says, “Properties in the portfolio [of Starlight] have in-place financing at fixed below-market interest rates, of which a significant portion is Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation-insured. The $425 million in CMHC debt, with a weighted average 2.52 per cent interest rate and remaining term of 4.2 years, is assumable subject to lender consent.”

I think we need to get some clarity on what's published. Starlight itself has highlighted, even in some of its own press releases, that it has subsidies backed with public money.

Their evictions have been widely reported by CBC, CTV, The Hill Times, CityNews, Maclean's and more. If I had the time to pull it up, Mr. Chair, I could share with you a story from CBC recently about some of its tenants being on a strike and how Starlight has potentially served notice to some of its tenants.

I think all of these issues can be clarified when the organization and Mr. Drimmer come to committee.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Ms. Gray, go ahead on Madam Zarrillo's motion.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will be brief. I think it's a reasonable suggestion to have that organization come as part of the panel for this study. We have two more meetings, and certainly it could be an NDP witness at one of those meetings. We think that's very reasonable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Okay.

With that, we have to deal with the motion of Madam Zarrillo.

I see no further discussion.

Mr. Fragiskatos, go ahead.