Mr. Richter, I'd like to begin with you. We did hear at the outset of the questioning, when Ms. Gray put certain questions to you, that, yes, we're having an extremely difficult time, like almost every other democracy is, with homelessness. I suppose there are two courses of action that a responsible party can follow. One is to simply identify the problems. The other is to identify the problems and actually propose solutions.

Would you say, Mr. Richter, that any party that is serious about addressing homelessness would offer solutions to deal with homelessness, and in fact would actually go as far as coming up with a housing plan that, at the very least, mentions homelessness—yes or no?

6 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Alliance to End Homelessness

Tim Richter

Yes.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Okay.

On that, and staying in that vein, $250 million has been proposed by the federal government in the most recent budget to address encampments. What do you think would be the best way to proceed with respect to encampments? How should that money be allocated to get to the best result?

6 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Alliance to End Homelessness

Tim Richter

I would recommend, and have been recommending, to the government a housing-focused encampment response or a housing-focused approach. I think that can be very effective in reducing encampments as we experience them today. I do think this program has a lot of potential if it can be implemented quickly. It will be really important to get this money out the door as soon as possible in order to ensure that this is an encampment program for this winter and not next and the one after.

I do think it's important to say that if we want to resolve encampments, we also need to be looking at slowing the flow of people into homelessness. That requires some form of housing benefit. But as you suggest, it's also very important to have that housing investment and to have that housing investment done quickly.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Mr. Richter, you talked about—Mr. Pomeroy, I'm going to come to you on this, as well, sir—the continuum of housing, starting with social housing and going all the way to home ownership. Just a few days ago, as you may have seen, the federal government made the largest investment in co-op housing in the past 30 years.

How critical is co-op housing in addressing the overall housing crisis? It's one form of housing, so I'm not making the case, at all, that this is the panacea. However, we've heard some describe co-op housing as “Soviet-style housing”. I think going down that kind of path is not just negative but also misses the entire point.

Where can co-op housing fit with respect to addressing the challenges and the crisis we face in front of us?

6 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Alliance to End Homelessness

Tim Richter

I think co-operative housing is an essential element. The program is a very smart investment that will continue to reap benefits for decades into the future. I'm strongly supportive of it. It's a form of attainable home ownership.

I would say it's a very good idea.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Mr. Pomeroy, what's the place of co-op housing in addressing the homelessness crisis? I noted that you talked about co-op housing in your testimony.

6 p.m.

Industry Professor, Canadian Housing Evidence Colloborative, McMaster University

Steve Pomeroy

Of all the social housing we've created in this country, about 20% is co-operative. It's another form of non-profit. I think any form of non-market housing is beneficial in terms of creating housing that's permanently affordable and immune to the market pressures that push up rents.

Absolutely, alongside non-profits, co-ops are still a critical part of making sure supply includes affordable supply.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

There's a minute left. I'll cede the time to Mr. Morrice.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

You have a minute.

June 10th, 2024 / 6:05 p.m.

Green

Mike Morrice Green Kitchener Centre, ON

Chair, would it be possible to add this minute to a minute from Madame Chabot?

That would give me two minutes.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Madame Chabot, are you giving a minute to Mr. Morrice?

6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

I'll give him a minute, no more.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Okay.

6:05 p.m.

Green

Mike Morrice Green Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Thank you to both friends on the committee. I appreciate it.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

You have two minutes, Mr. Morrice.

6:05 p.m.

Green

Mike Morrice Green Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Peter and Louise.

Mr. Pomeroy, I really appreciate the research you've done to help us identify where the housing crisis is coming from. Of course, part of it is the loss of affordable housing across the country. Your most recent research shows that my community is losing the most units for every new affordable unit getting built. For every one new affordable unit getting built, we're losing in Kitchener-Waterloo at least 39 units. In your research, you talk about “plugging the holes in the bottom of the bucket”. I assume you're referring to the erosion of those affordable units. You've also talked about provincial rent controls as one part of that.

Can you talk about what more is needed? Some have talked about, for example, removing the tax incentives that real estate investment trusts have access to. Can you speak about what needs to be done federally to plug the holes in this bucket?

6:05 p.m.

Industry Professor, Canadian Housing Evidence Colloborative, McMaster University

Steve Pomeroy

For clarity, this is data that compares the total number of existing units under $1,000 a month with the number of units built under affordable housing programs for each city. Certainly, Kitchener-Waterloo has the highest number. In part, that's because of the change in the number under $1,000. Many units have moved to above $1,000 a month. Also, the number of units that were created in Kitchener-Waterloo is less than in other cities. That's how the ratio comes out of it.

Absolutely. Many of these units still exist, but they exist at higher rents, because there's very strong pressure on rental markets thanks to high levels of demand coming from both new immigration and the fact that folks can't afford to own, so they stay in the rental market. That puts pressure on the rental market, as well.

We have these pressure points on the rental market pushing up rents in a regulatory environment that allows vacancy decontrol. When units turn over, the rents can go up quite dramatically. We see monthly data from rentals.ca of rents going up 15%, 18% or 20%, year over year. That's the key issue creating the affordability crisis. We need to take a look at temporary vacancy rate and decontrol mechanisms. However, as I said earlier, that's not a federal jurisdiction. It's a provincial jurisdiction—one the federal government can only ask the provinces to take a look at.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Morrice.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for a minute and a half.

6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Pomeroy, at the summit of Quebec's Front d'action populaire en réaménagement urbain, a number of groups said that the target for social and community housing should be 20%. That is also one of our party's recommendations. Community housing currently represents about 10% of the housing stock. According to these groups, setting the target at 20% would go a long way towards addressing the crisis.

Do you agree with that recommendation?

6:05 p.m.

Industry Professor, Canadian Housing Evidence Colloborative, McMaster University

Steve Pomeroy

Yes, as I understand it, at the summit the discussion was that social housing should be 20% of all rental units, as opposed to the total housing stock. Essentially, that means a doubling of the existing social housing stock, which is consistent with a report from Scotiabank last year, which suggested that Canada is at half the OECD average and that we should try to double the size, which is the point Tim Richter made about 655,000 additional units.

6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

We talked about the provinces, but I'd like to turn to Quebec, which has an agreement with Canada.

How can we make housing programs more flexible so it doesn't take three or four years to see results once the will and investment are there?

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Give a short answer, Mr. Pomeroy.

6:10 p.m.

Industry Professor, Canadian Housing Evidence Colloborative, McMaster University

Steve Pomeroy

It's a processing problem. Many of these programs are loans-based, and the underwriting process is quite onerous. I think CMHC, in fairness, has accelerated the approvals process compared with the beginning of the national housing strategy. There's always room to do better.

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

To conclude the first hour, Madam Zarrillo, you have two and a half minutes.