Human Resources Committee on Sept. 17th, 2024

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

When you're looking at the numbers you gave earlier with respect to the addition of over and above building code requirements, plus these additional consultants who are needed to come in and are being required by the government's housing agency, we're talking, on a project, based on what you're saying, hundreds of thousands and many per cent well over.... You said 15% and then now adding this on would even be higher. It is adding to the cost and potentially the delays that are coming from the government's housing agency.

It sounds like you're rowing in one direction trying to get affordable housing out the door and being built, yet the government is rowing in the opposite direction. Is that what it seems like?

[Justin Marchand]

Yes, absolutely. If it makes financial sense to spend more money on building higher-efficiency units over the long term, whether it's private market or non-profit, private builders and private financing will be available to finance those initiatives. It doesn't have to come at the force of government for that to happen.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to turn over the rest of my time to Mr. Aitchison.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to my colleague.

Mr. Jarvis, I'd like to turn back to you. In your presentation, you talked a lot about the importance of increasing densities in urban centres in and around transit, for example, and that, of course, it's among the more expensive ways to build and places to build, yet we need to do it. There are an awful lot of impediments to doing that, whether it's local park charges and fees, or the federal government and their taxation policies.

Can you give us a minute and a half of all the things that we should be doing to incentivize the construction of higher-density residential in existing urban areas and why that's important?

[Beau Jarvis]

Sure. I think there's generally been a downloading of land use regulations to local municipal governments, and for good reason. The constituents are local and the politicians are local. I think the issue is that transit funding and infrastructure funding often come from more senior levels of government. There's been a lack of connection with that investment in transit infrastructure in particular and housing outcomes. If we're going to be investing in transit infrastructure in urban centres and putting large transit stations in, that is absolutely, from a sustainability perspective, where housing should go.

To make it easier, I think we need to start using metrics to identify outcomes. The Province of British Columbia is actually going in the right direction there. They're forcing municipalities to create housing needs reports. They will then be following up with municipalities to identify outcomes. I think we absolutely have to be using metrics. We have not been doing that.

The other thing is the low-hanging fruit here for all governments. We are calling for a policy moratorium. Right now we're building a building under code A, we're designing a new building under code B and policy-makers are making up code C, all at the same time. We can't operate that way. We have to stop the policy. Just give us some breathing room. We need to figure out taxation. We need to figure out policy. We need a moratorium on both. That is how we're going to get housing built.

The private sector doesn't need to be subsidized, and it doesn't need to be incentivized. It needs to be enabled. We just need to build housing for Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Aitchison and Mr. Jarvis.

Next is Mr. Long. Then we'll conclude this section.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Good afternoon to our witnesses.

It's good to see all my colleagues across the horseshoe.

I have just a few comments. We as a government have leaned in and put our shoulder to the wheel on housing. I sometimes step back and marvel at the criticism we take on something that really is provincial jurisdiction. Certainly in the Maritimes, I have Conservative premiers in Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. Clearly, there's Premier Ford in Ontario. There are Conservative premiers really across the Prairies and the west. I'll say again that it is a provincial jurisdiction.

I'm particularly proud of the programs we have put forth as a government. Are they perfect? No. Could they be tweaked and be better? Sure. But do you know what? We did step up. We stepped in when leadership was needed on the housing file right across the country. Whether it's the rapid housing initiative, the old coinvestment initiative or different CMHC loan programs, you know, let's put it on the record that the Conservative Party voted against each and every one of those programs. They also recently voted against the urban, rural and northern indigenous housing strategy. They voted against that program.

Sure we can take criticism and constructive feedback, but when we're criticized at times for trying to lean in and help, I think it's unfair and unwarranted. I remember back in 2015 when the NDP, with their leader Thomas Mulcair, promised balanced budgets. I remember that he put forth in their election platform $250 million for housing across the country. I mean, $250 million wouldn't build housing in half a city.

Again, we can take criticism, but I think we also deserve a lot of credit for our initiatives and leadership on housing across this country.

I would like to turn my time over to MP Morrice.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, MP Long.

MP Morrice, you have two minutes and 20 seconds.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, MP Long. I appreciate the chance to participate in the conversation.

Mr. Marchand, I really appreciated your speaking to the reality with respect to where we stand on social housing around the world and the fact that we're at the bottom of the G7 right now. Even if we doubled it, we'd still just be middle of the pack.

I have a question with respect to a proposal I heard this summer from Habitat for Humanity. They noted that builders of purpose-built rental housing have HST/GST waived, but those who are building non-profit, affordable ownership don't. I wonder if this might also help groups like the K-W Urban Native Wigwam Project in my community, which you might be familiar with, who are also building indigenous housing.

Can you comment or give your thoughts on the possibility of the federal government applying the same waiving of HST for non-profit, affordable home ownership as well?

[Justin Marchand]

Yes, thank you for that. That's been a bit of a sore point as well. As non-profits, we still pay a portion of the HST on new homes. As a rough estimate, I can tell you that on a $400,000 build, for example, we will pay about $5,600 in HST on each unit on a build. That is not refundable.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thanks for that one.

[Justin Marchand]

Therefore, on a 40-unit development, there will be one unit that we can't build because we're paying the government HST on an affordable housing development.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thanks for that, Mr. Marchand.

In my case, in my community, it was Habitat that could have built an extra 45 affordable townhouses if they didn't have to pay HST. The federal government could recover that cost if the real estate investment trust didn't have its tax break. You could find the revenue through the tax breaks that REIT gets in order to help yourself and others build these affordable units.

Thanks for that.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Morrice.

That concludes the first hour.

I want to thank you, witnesses, for taking your time to appear before HUMA and to address the issues on this file that are important for you.

With that, I'm going to adjourn this section of the meeting.

The meeting is suspended for a five-minute health break, and then we'll resume in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]