Human Resources Committee on Sept. 19th, 2024

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you very much. So there's still a good unionization rate. It's relatively stable, but obviously that depends on the reference period.

I'd like to ask you another question. As I said, the unionization rate is a huge determining factor. That goes without saying. But what can we use here in this analysis? I'm not asking you to tell us exactly what we should do, because I know that's not your role. On the other hand, playing with numbers makes me think that you probably draw some conclusions.

How are we, as parliamentarians, in a position to further encourage unionization? For example, Bill C-58, regarding strikebreakers, has been passed. Can you think of other things that might be in our blind spot as elected officials that we could work on, without saying whether we should? I understand your position, but could you shed some light on this?

[Josée Bégin]

Thank you for the question.

From Statistics Canada's point of view, certainly our mandate is to collect information on the Canadian economy and the Canadian population and to ensure that it is accessible to all and supports decision-making and policy development.

As my colleague Ms. Marchand mentioned earlier, it's often important to look at disaggregated data. I would therefore recommend that the committee look at how unionization rates differ across different population groups, whether by age, occupation or sector of activity, for example, to see if there are any conclusions to be drawn.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you for directing us to data disaggregation.

Ms. Marchand, I could have asked you a question about women. For example, we're always talking about legal equity, but de facto equity isn't there. You mentioned some rather precarious workplaces, such as the restaurant business. The difference in unionization rates between women and men, by sector, can also be seen objectively in the statistics. This would add to Ms. Bégin's comments on the disaggregation of data and what there would be to highlight.

[Josée Bégin]

I can answer and give some highlights at a summary level. If the committee needs more information, we can provide an answer later.

We know that 32% of working women are unionized, compared to 27% of men. Since 2008, there has been a trend towards women in the professions being more unionized than men. What's more, according to our latest data, the difference in pay between unionized and non-unionized women is greater than that of men. Unionized women earn 16% more than non-unionized women. For men, the difference is 4%.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Gill and Ms. Bégin.

Ms. Zarrillo, go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank my colleague from the Bloc, Madame Gill, for asking those questions around women and disaggregated.... It's definitely very important that we look at these groups separately. I'm happy to see that persons with disabilities are also protected under unions and have better wages.

Mr. Chair, I have a motion that I want to bring to the table right now. I'll start by saying that since Parliament rose for the summer, above-guideline rent increases have continued in Canada. In addition, we've learned that Dream Unlimited, one of the largest corporate landlords, has admitted to using software that the United States Department of Justice claims is used for illegal price-fixing between landlords. We have also learned that this software is common among Canada's corporate landlords.

Canadians deserve to know if their landlords are colluding on rent hikes to increase profits for investors and pension funds at their expense. We know that the Public Service Pension Investments, a Canadian Crown corporation, has partnered with one of these corporate landlords, Starlight Investments, to drive up corporate profits while kicking out the very tenants that their pension is supposed to protect. This is happening at 71, 75 and 79 Thorncliffe Park Drive in Toronto.

The Liberals twice gave Starlight Investments a free pass not to appear here before this committee. This government continues to protect the richest corporations and throw Canadians out on the street.

I will move the motion that I put on notice last week.

Given that,

while families are increasingly making hard choices about paying rent or keeping food on the table, corporate landlords have been contributing to rising rents in Canada by buying up previously affordable apartments and raising rents to increase profits for investors;

one of Canada’s largest corporate landlords, Dream Unlimited, has admitted to using AI software that the U.S. government has alleged allows landlords to illegally coordinate rent increases, and that the software is commonly used by as many as 13 companies in Canada with more than $5 billion in revenue;

today the biggest real estate investment firms collectively own close to 20% of the purpose-built rental units in Canada, nearly 400,000 rental units, up from zero in the 1990s;

the Public Sector Pension Investment Board, also known as PSP Investments, has significant investments in multi-family housing in partnership with Starlight Investments;

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities undertake a study of the role of financialized landlords on rising costs in Canada’s rental market, including how the use of algorithmic pricing tools is contributing to rent increases and how pervasive this practice is across the Canadian rental market; that the Committee invite President of Dream Unlimited Michael J. Cooper, CEO of Starlight Investments Daniel Drimmer, CEO of Boardwalk REIT Sam Kolias, CEO of Mainstreet Equity Bob Dhillon, CEO of Canadian Apartment Properties Real Estate Investment Trust (CAPREIT) Mark Kenney, President and CEO of PSP Investments Deborah K. Orida, and other experts and stakeholders; that the committee hold a minimum of four meetings and report its findings and recommendations to the House; and that the government table a comprehensive response to the report.

Mr. Chair, people—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Zarrillo.

Just for the committee members and witnesses, Madame Zarrillo has moved a motion, which is in order. It's her prerogative to do that in her time. Now we will continue with the motion.

Madame Zarrillo, do you want to add something?

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I have a very short wrap-up here.

People in my community are continuing to be squeezed by their rent while their rental homes fall into disrepair and are lost to corporate landlords.

I know that every member of this committee has heard similar stories in their communities. Canadians have had enough of this corporate gouging, and I encourage my colleagues to support this motion so that we can hold the actions of these corporations to account for Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Zarrillo.

As I indicated, the motion is in order. It is now moved on the floor for discussion. I have Mr. Fragiskatos on the motion of Madame Zarrillo.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We have witnesses here who have taken time from their busy schedule representing workers. They have come here to inform federal policy on unions and workers. I've enjoyed listening to them so far. Obviously, most members around the table have been prepared to ask them questions. I think that should continue.

Ms. Zarrillo may know that the issue is being looked at by the finance committee as well. That's not to say that the matters that she has raised are not being examined; they are, at the finance committee, where they've been given a lot of attention, and I'm sure that will continue to be the case.

With that, Mr. Chair, I move that we adjourn debate on the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We have a motion to adjourn debate on the motion currently before us. With that, I have to go directly to a recorded vote on the motion to adjourn of Mr. Fragiskatos.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 9; nays 2)

The debate is adjourned.

Madam Zarrillo, you are out of your time.

Now we will move on to Mrs. Gray for five minutes.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you very much, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

A recent report that you put out cited “Highest inflation rate in 40 years takes an outsized bite out of annual wages and salaries in 2022”. It showed how most wages in most sectors were down in terms of inflation-adjusted median annual wages by industry, meaning people's paycheques didn't go as far. The industries where wages declined the most included manufacturing, education services, public administration, transportation and warehousing, most of which would presumably be unionized jobs.

My question is this: Have you broken down that report or do you have another report that looks at inflation-adjusted median annual wages by unionized versus non-unionized sectors or positions? Is it something that you could table for this committee if you have that report now, or is it something that you could put together and table for this committee?

[Isabelle Marchand]

Yes, we can do it.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Great. Thank you very much

Liberal ideology and policy, supported by the NDP, have led to union workers losing their jobs, including in forestry, energy and fisheries. Reports show that about 9,000 jobs were lost in forestry in British Columbia between 2018 and 2023. In 2019 the Tolko mill in Kelowna in my region permanently closed, with 217 permanent good-paying jobs gone. There were two more sawmill closures in B.C. just announced, which will be 500 job losses. My colleague, MP Zimmer, is in the room here today. It's in his region.

U.S. tariffs were cited as the primary reason. Union forestry workers were better served by the Harper government, which completed a softwood lumber agreement within three months of taking office and signed an extension that expired in 2015. Three U.S. administrations and nine years later, this Liberal government has completely failed to secure a softwood lumber agreement with the United States. When there are layoffs, governments talk about retraining.

Have you done analysis on the retraining or reskilling of workers who have lost their job in the forestry sector and if the new positions are comparable, including if previously unionized positions are unionized in their new positions, and if compensation such as wages and benefits were the same?

[Isabelle Marchand]

I'll start by saying that we have some information about the quality of employment—for example, access to skills development and training—that are part of the labour force survey for which we can provide some statistics.

In terms of, if I understand correctly, the retraining of specific workers and how it has affected directly their employment before and after, I'm not sure we'd have this information, but it's something we can look at.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you very much.

Could you go back and look at what my question was? If that's something for which you haven't done the analysis, if it's something that you could do and then table for this committee, it would be much appreciated.

The next thing that I want to move on to is the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources' just transition plan from September 20, 2022. On page 68, it estimated the Liberal government's just transition would lead to the elimination of 2.7 million jobs in sectors like agriculture, energy, manufacturing, construction and transportation. I've heard this uncertainty is incredibly stressful for workers.

Have you broken down these expected job losses according to jobs that are currently unionized versus non-unionized, and done a comparison of what the upskilled positions would be?

As well, would the compensation, such as wages and benefits, be the same? I'm running out of time here. If you haven't done that analysis, I'm wondering if that's something you could do and also table for this committee.

[Josée Bégin]

Mr. Chair, we haven't done that analysis. We can look to see if it's feasible, given the data sources and sample sizes we have. We can look into it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Gray. Your time is up, but the witnesses have your question. If they could provide that in writing to the committee, it would be appreciated.

Mr. Coteau, you have five minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses today.

I think that organized labour and unions in general have a very significant role to play in the future of this country when it comes to our workforce, especially with the changes that are taking place in our country with technology, an ever-changing workforce and the protection of workers overall.

My mother cleaned dishes at a children's hospital. They brought in contract workers. They formed a union and she was one of the organizers there. It was a perfect example of people getting organized to protect their jobs and to look for ways to better position the people who really make that institution, that hospital or that workplace successful.

I thought that the data you provided today was very good data. We saw the difference in pay, benefits, insurance and just better supports for workers. Thank you for collecting that data.

We know that because of organized labour in this country, we've seen higher wages, improved working conditions, better benefits and job security, and even vacation days to better support families. It wasn't long ago when the Conservatives, just a decade ago, put in right-to-work legislation in this country. They put a couple of bills in place—Bill C-377 and Bill C-525. These bills specifically targeted unions.

In 2014, the legislation that the Harper government put in made it difficult for unions to certify. They looked for strategic ways to actually stop the growth of unions in this country. I think it is important for Canadians to know that.

We need to look for ways to ensure that there are workforces where those barriers are removed, where people can organize and can present a case for better placement of workers in that workforce.

I have one question I want to ask. The statistics you provided were very detailed. I know that there were some questions around gender. Do you do have any disaggregated data based on race?

[Josée Bégin]

Thank you for the question.

We have multiple sources of information that we use to collect information around population groups. In the past, this was known as “visible minorities”. The census of population is one of those sources. With the census, we can go to a very low level of geography.

On the labour force survey, as Isabelle mentioned earlier, we collect various information, including population groups. Since the summer of 2020, since the beginning of the pandemic, we have been able to report key labour market indicators disaggregated by population groups.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Perhaps you don't have the information with you now, but could you tell this committee specifically how many people of African descent, percentage-wise, are part of unions? Is it a possibility to get that type of a breakdown?

[Isabelle Marchand]

For the example you provided, the data source would be the census. The labour force survey will provide information about the racialized group, so the statistics can be disaggregated, for example, by Black, Chinese, South Asian, etc. There are a predefined number of groups.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I'd like to request that, through you, Mr. Chair.

If there is any of that type of information that you think may be of value to this committee, broken down between....

I would also request that it be based on gender and other categories like disability, race and region, if possible.

Thank you so much.

I think I'm done, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have 14 seconds. Are you going to cede it?

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I'll take the 14 seconds and say thank you.