Evidence of meeting #123 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Coteau.
I believe the witnesses were clear on what you requested that they report back with, so thank you.
Welcome, Ms. Chabot.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Good morning, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, witnesses. I'm very pleased to join you. I may ask questions that have already been asked, but I'll try to avoid that.
By way of a short introduction, you should know that before I went into politics, I was a union leader for a long time. When Mr. Long tabled this study motion, I had reservations about its substance. Unionization plays a major role in our society, particularly in Quebec. It's well known that there are advantages to being unionized, both in terms of wages and benefits, and I would even say in terms of certain social protection laws. However, unionization has been a battle. Returning to my reservations, I wondered what direction this study would take. Mostly, I hoped it would shed light on these issues rather than what I feared.
The Conservatives did that back in the day, with the two bills Mr. Coteau just mentioned. If we play that game, I'd say that, even if the right to unionize plays an important role, the interdiction of freedom of association, even in unionized environments, is still frequent. I'm thinking here of labour disputes. When there are lockouts, the use of scabs is an attack, a direct attack on the rights of association and negotiation.
That said, until recently, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, Quebec had one of the highest rates of unionization in Canada. We also know that what contributes to this rate is the public service, which is highly unionized. This is the case in health care, education and the public service in general. However, there are figures that show that in the private sector, the unionization rate has declined.
Is it true that we're seeing a decline in unionization rates in the private sector? If so, could you point us to some sectors?
Director, Centre for Labour Market Information, Statistics Canada
Thank you for your question.
In terms of union coverage, Quebec ranks second among the most unionized provinces. The first is Newfoundland and Labrador, with a rate of 39.6%, followed by Quebec at 38.9%.
As for the relative unionization rates of the public sector and that of the various private sector industries, we don't have the figures today, but we can get them.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Your time is up, madame.
Madam Zarrillo, go ahead for two and a half minutes.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm always hopeful that the data we collect from Canadians is used for Canadians. How does the government use the data they get from Statistics Canada to improve the lives of Canadian workers? Please share an example of a government policy it has informed.
I'm really interested in a focus on equity, so if you can, please think of an inequity that you saw that needed to be corrected, and the government took that insight and created policy.
Assistant Chief Statistician, Social, Health and Labour Statistics Field, Statistics Canada
As I said earlier, the mandate of Statistics Canada is really to collect information from Canadians, whether it's on businesses or the population, and provide the information and make it accessible to Canadians and to policy-makers.
I wouldn't be able to comment on how the data have been used and what kind of impact they may have had on the population.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Okay, that's great. I can understand that they have to ask you for the data.
You mentioned the middle of the wage distribution, and I was very interested in this when I was looking at the data. Is it mean or is it median?
The average, I understand, is our mean, but is the median...? I'm very interested in how women are affected by this and whether the majority of the women are below or above, because sometimes those very high ones and those very low ones can be outliers.
Is the middle of the wage distribution the median?
Director, Centre for Labour Market Information, Statistics Canada
When we presented the statistics on wage distribution, we were talking about the average hourly wage, not the median. However, the median is also available, and I can provide it. In fact, it's the wage distribution—
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
I'm sorry. I'm really short on time.
Can you get us the median of those wages by gender, please?
My last question is in relation to the fact that the government just accepts the information you collect. Does the labour force survey capture workers who are currently doing unpaid primary care work, like caregivers in the home?
Assistant Chief Statistician, Social, Health and Labour Statistics Field, Statistics Canada
The labour force survey collects information from Canadians around employment. The main focus of the labour force survey is whether a person is in the labour force, if they are retired or unemployed, and how long they've been unemployed. We would capture everybody, including if they are doing unpaid work. That's the first thing I want to say.
The second point is that we do have sources of information outside of the labour force survey that provide detailed information around unpaid work in the care economy specifically.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Madam Zarrillo.
I need a little direction from the committee. We have only a few minutes left in the first hour. Do you wish to adjourn while we transition, or should we go three and three?
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Thank you.
What I think is interesting to do with data is to break it down into different subsets. We've seen the decline in the unionization rate in general. We got that information, but what I find interesting is the decline in the unionization rate in private sector unions versus public sector unions.
The information I was able to see is that from 2015 to 2021, which is the only data I could find, the unionization rate in the private sector declined from 15% to 13.8%. Those are the years that this government has been there. They say they're friendly to unions and labour, but we've actually seen a pretty precipitous decline in the number of union members in the private sector. That's as a result of loss of jobs in industries like forestry, mining and others.
Do you have the numbers for the decline of unionization in the private sector with you, or could you provide those to the committee for the period from 2015 to as close to the present as possible?
Director, Centre for Labour Market Information, Statistics Canada
We can provide statistics about the trends for private and public sectors.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Wonderful. Thank you.
I know you're with Statistics Canada, but I did a little bit of research myself. I looked at private sector union wages on average in Canada, which I determined to be about $31.14. If you have a different number, please provide that to the committee.
I don't know if you can do this, but I looked at the private sector average union wage in the United States, and it's actually $41.17, so it is a $10-an-hour difference. If you could confirm that, that would be wonderful for the committee.
This goes back to the terrible trend we've been seeing in Canada with the decline in per capita GDP. We know there's a huge gap between Canada and the United States, and it looks like this discrepancy is hitting particularly hard in the private unionized sector.
Is that something you'd be able to provide to the committee?
Assistant Chief Statistician, Social, Health and Labour Statistics Field, Statistics Canada
Yes, we can provide that information afterwards.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Wonderful. Thank you very much.
I think I have 10 seconds, so thank you very much for coming today.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Mr. Seeback.
We will conclude this round with Mr. Van Bynen for three minutes.
Tony Van Bynen Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Some time ago, the Conservative Party eliminated the long-form census. Has the data that we've lost as a result of that influenced your analysis of the information that we're looking at now?