Human Resources Committee on Oct. 8th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Aitchison.

Mr. Coteau, go ahead for six minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses today.

I think is a very exciting study because it really allows us as a committee to explore innovation that's taking place here in our country and to look outside of our country to see what's working.

I like how you phrased it, Mr. Chouinard. You said that either we slow down demand or we increase supply.

I think innovation and technology will allow us to increase supply in this country and to tap into our natural resources, to make it eco-friendly and to increase speed at lower cost. All of these pieces, I believe, are really great benefits of what your sector is doing. The mass timber sector is eco-friendly. It allows us as a country to really tap into those resources.

At the end of the day, if we put the municipal regulations aside—and I'm talking about the actual building of a structure—is the mass timber actually increasing our speed? Is it eco-friendly and is it sustainable? Also, does it actually end up being cheaper?

[Patrick Chouinard]

Those are good questions.

Let's deal with the cost issue and the price of affordable housing. The commonly held belief is that mass timber is more expensive than other forms of construction. I took on affordable housing partly because I wanted to dispel the belief that mass timber is, in fact, more expensive.

We now source all of our materials from Ontario. We manufacture in a highly automated facility in Ontario. We sell and distribute many of our products locally. We have proven that mass timber is actually one of the most cost-effective ways of building affordable housing. It's slightly more expensive than an all-stick frame construction, but it's 15% to 20% faster than an all light wood frame form of construction.

The beauty of the hybrid structures that we're promoting in the industry is that all of the components are factory made. All of the light wood frame materials and all of the mass timber components are made in factories, so we can produce these buildings in volume.

Absolutely, it's environmentally friendly. As I indicated in my presentation, we are using our forests' natural ability to absorb carbon and store the remaining carbon in the form of these beautiful buildings. There's a huge environmental push to this form of construction.

The answer to those questions is yes, absolutely.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

We've come a long way. When I sat in cabinet with the Ontario government, we had a debate on increasing the storey level of wood frame buildings. To see your several projects, just based on your company alone, with some of them reaching eight storeys, is impressive. Thank you so much for the work you're doing.

To Fiona Coughlin, I have a quick question around being on the cutting edge of technology, being at that place where you're leading the way and embracing new technology that is really at the edge of change.

Was it difficult? I know you said that there was a lot of enthusiasm for the project. In getting people on board to adopt new technology and housing, was it difficult to convince people that this was the way to go?

[Fiona Coughlin]

It wasn't, not for my team. I think it really depends on your team. We're an innovative group, so we wanted to try.

At first I was a little nervous, for sure, because sometimes cutting edge is bleeding edge, but I knew we had the right group together. We didn't have any vocal push-back, but I often present and share this information with other Habitat affiliates and at different conferences across the country, and there's always some skepticism. I think that comes from the fact that there are sometimes YouTube videos and different stories that come out, saying you can build a house in five minutes for a dollar. It's completely exaggerated.

I need to share the truth of how the process was for the first one and the ways we can improve it so that people can actually think about this as a practical method for building. It's very practical for the affordable housing sector, especially when we talk about how there were no deficiencies. Not having to replace drywall every year in an affordable housing structure is an amazing benefit to something like this.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.

I want to thank both of you for being at the innovative cutting edge of the technology shift that's taking place in this country.

We as Canadians have an incredible opportunity to embrace the best technology, not only here in our country but around the world, and to forge a new path when it comes to homebuilding, making it more accessible, making it more affordable and building more quickly. I think technology will play a massive role in doing that, so thank you so much for being at that cutting edge of technology and really leading the way in this country.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Coteau. You have three seconds left.

The floor is yours for six minutes, Ms. Chabot.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses.

I am going to use the first part of my time to move the motion for which notice was duly given on September 27, which you have received, relating to workers in seasonal industries and improvements to be made to the employment insurance program. I am sure this will not take much time. This is my second try, but please don't tell me “third time lucky.”

I believe this is important. In fact, Mr. Lapointe spoke about this briefly, since it affects every worker in the construction industry. Seasonal industries are a phenomenon that cover a lot of workers. Improvements need to be made. I am proposing three meetings on this subject. For one thing, that will mean we can hear from advocacy groups for the unemployed, other relevant stakeholders, and, of course, the Minister of Employment and his officials. I am also asking the committee to report its recommendations to the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Chabot, would you please read the motion into the record? You just explained it. You have to move the motion.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Mr. Chair, I don't have any interpretation. I did not really understand what you said.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Are you on the right channel? Yes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Is it okay?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Yes. Madame, move your motion.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

The text of my motion is as follows:That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee undertake a study of the situation of workers in the seasonal industry with regard to necessary improvements and changes to the employment insurance program to meet the needs of these workers, who often face job insecurity and financial difficulties for themselves and their families; that the Committee devote three meetings, including two to hear witnesses; that it invite the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Official Languages and public servants to answer the Committee's questions for one hour, as well as groups defending the rights of the unemployed and other relevant witnesses; and that the Committee report its recommendations to the House;

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

The clerk has advised me that the motion is in order. I want to advise the witness that Ms. Chabot has used her time to move a motion, which is her prerogative. We have to deal with it before we return.

Is there discussion on the motion moved by Ms. Chabot?

All those in favour?

(Motion agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

The floor is yours for two minutes, Ms. Chabot.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

This is for all of the witnesses.

I understand that faced with the challenge presented by the housing crisis, we have to build housing fast. However, is equal attention being given to speed and quality?

I think that speed should never be in competition with quality when it comes to construction. Do the federal programs give you all the tools you need to be faster and at the same time pay attention to the quality and safety of the homes?

[Fiona Coughlin]

I can take a stab at it.

Obviously, we can always use a little more support and funding from all levels of government to achieve speed and quality.

On what was brought up by Kevin Lee earlier about harmonization, there are ways to achieve speed without impacting quality. Harmonization of the building and planning acts across municipalities would make things easier. I currently represent an area that has several municipalities, and I can't build the same house from one neighbourhood to the next. There are areas where we're wasting time, areas that don't impact the worker and don't impact the community. There are ways we can we can do that.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Coughlin.

I would like to hear Mr. Chouinard's views as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Chouinard, her time is over. You can address it in a follow-up.

Ms. Zarrillo, you have six minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you Mr. Chair.

My questions will be for Mr. Chouinard for this first section.

In March 2019, I was fortunate enough to be in Penticton when the NDP premier, John Horgan, announced that 12-storey mass timber homes would be allowed. Then in June 2019, when I was on city council in Coquitlam, I was fortunate enough to be chairing the meeting when Coquitlam directed staff to take the steps for Coquitlam to be an early adopter of the National Building Code in regard to mass timber building. In 2021, we changed our zoning bylaw to allow for 12-storey mass timber buildings.

I'm happy to say today that in Coquitlam, Adera has the first construction of a 12-storey apartment building. It's been a journey, but for B.C., it's been a very important one.

Mr. Chouinard, I understand that there are conversations about 12 storeys going to 18. Maybe you can fill us in on that. How is it currently incorporated in the National Building Code, and what are the disparities by provinces and territories? How can mass timber help Canada meet its climate goals?

[Patrick Chouinard]

First, the code has come a long way over the last number of years. Originally—here in Ontario, for example—we were only able to go to four storeys. Then it quickly jumped to six storeys. Currently, we can build a mass timber building in Ontario up to 12 storeys. As of January 1, we will be able to go to 18 storeys.

Code has traditionally fallen behind the market, but in fact, at least in Ontario and Coquitlam, as I understand it, it is actually ahead of the industry. The code allows us to go to 18 storeys, but the industry is a little slow to design, engineer and supply buildings up to 18 storeys. It varies across the provinces. It also varies across different states in the United States. Eventually, it will all catch up. This is a very positive development for the mass timber industry and environmental performance.

On the issue of climate change, the concrete and steel industries are responsible for somewhere between 12% to 14% of the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere today. We need to find other ways of building that don't exacerbate the carbon dioxide problem, and mass timber is part of that solution.

What we're doing, as indicated earlier, is leveraging our forests' natural ability to absorb carbon dioxide and store the remaining carbon, ultimately in the form of these beautiful buildings. Unlike the concrete and steel industries that are spewing all of this carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, the mass timber industry is not only removing it from the environment but also storing it in the form of these beautiful buildings.

There's a huge environmental push for this form of construction.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Chouinard, I pulled up the staff report from February 2021 in Coquitlam.

It says what you just spoke about:

Tall mass timber buildings create substantially lower greenhouse gas emissions than concrete structures of similar sizes, and, as CLT components are manufactured off-site, there are significant reductions in construction site waste. Neighbourhood impacts are also reduced with shorter construction times, smaller crews, and less construction noise.

Would you agree with that statement, Mr. Chouinard?

[Patrick Chouinard]

Absolutely.

On the waste issue, all of the components we manufacture are designed to reduce the amount of waste. When we ship one of our buildings to a site, there is almost no waste whatsoever. All of the component parts have a unique location. They fit within the building, much like IKEA furniture. There's no cutting of those materials on site, which dramatically reduces the amount of waste. A typical six-storey building will require 20 workers if conventional construction materials are used. Typically, a six-storey building of ours—say, 25,000 square feet—would only have about six workers on site. It reduces the amount of labour on site and it increases the speed.

Also, it's much less disruptive. You don't have dozens of concrete trucks coming in and out of the site. There are a lot fewer trucks delivering a mass timber building to site than there are with conventionally constructed buildings.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

My last question is for Ms. Coughlin.

You introduced the accessibility factor. This committee is on disability inclusion.

I wonder if you wouldn't mind sharing the kinds of accessibility innovations and challenges your organization and clients have experienced in housing.