Evidence of meeting #129 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gaetan Royer  Chief Executive Officer, Massive Canada Building Systems Incorporated
Darrell Searles  President, Lodestar Structures Incorporated
Paul De Berardis  Vice-president, Building Standards and Engineering, Residential Construction Council of Ontario

The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)) Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Committee members, the clerk has advised me that we have a quorum. Therefore, I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 129 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format according to rules adopted by the House of Commons. Meeting members and witnesses are appearing virtually, as well as in the room.

I would like to remind those attending virtually and in the room that, over the course of the meeting, if you wish to get my attention, please raise your hand and wait until I recognize you by name. Also, you have the option of choosing to participate in the official language of your choice by using interpretation services in the room. Make sure you're on the English channel if you want to hear it in English, and be on French for en français. Those appearing virtually can click on the globe icon on the bottom of their Surface and choose the official language of their choice. If there's a breakdown in interpretation services, please get my attention. We will suspend while it is being corrected.

Also, to those appearing in the room, I'll remind you—as well as myself—to please turn off any alarms on devices. If they're on vibrate, turn that off as well, because the sound will affect the translators. Please avoid touching the microphone boom. Again, it can cause hearing issues.

I would like to welcome our witnesses for today's first hour.

We have Gaetan Royer, chief executive officer, Massive Canada Building Systems Inc., who is appearing in person. We have Darrell Searles, president, Lodestar Structures Inc. We also have, appearing virtually, Paul De Berardis, vice-president of building standards and engineering, Residential Construction Council of Ontario.

I will be—

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll be very quick, because I know we have witnesses.

Similar to what occurred at another meeting, I am bringing up, very quickly, that we received a letter from the CNIB. Ms. Rabaa's letter highlighted the committee's concerns about barriers to accessibility being created at the committee. Ms. Rabaa wrote that, during her audio test, staff informed her that “there were no issues with the quality of the device being used.” Of course, the perspectives of Canadians who are blind or deaf-blind, or who have low vision, should not be rendered inaccessible at any committee.

I'm hoping we can quickly have consent among members to remedy this issue by asking that the chair apologize to Ms. Rabaa on behalf of the committee for the barrier to access and provide an explanation to Ms. Rabaa as to why her audio test was deemed successful but she was then not allowed to participate. Can we invite Ms. Rabaa to reappear at the committee for one hour? We can easily accommodate this. The committee agreed last week to leave the study open, pending the appearance of the minister for an hour. Therefore, the study is still open and we can easily have an additional hour scheduled for Ms. Rabaa.

One suggestion could be, so that it doesn't take away from other committee business.... We have other times in the future when we'll be looking at drafting instructions. Maybe we can tighten that meeting up or even ask for written submissions, because drafting instructions.... It's really just getting feedback from committee members about how we want the analysts to write the report. That might be a way of adding in that extra hour very easily.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

I completely agree with the member. Thank you for bringing this forward.

I have two suggestions.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

I don't want this to get into a debate.

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Number one, I think we may want to formally request, through the House of Commons, a snapshot of what's actually going on. Why is this occurring with different technologies? Let's get the House of Commons to look into building more compatible systems that work with our system, collaborating with CNIB and other groups to see what technology we should incorporate.

The second thing I would suggest, Mr. Chair, is that we add the vice-chairs of the committee to the letter that comes from you, so they know it's not only from the chair. It's from the vice-chairs as well.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

I just have a quick thing to add.

I noticed in that letter that the witness mentioned she was in rural Canada. I think that's something, Chair, you could maybe make note of.

If we're requesting testimony from those who live in rural Canada, sometimes we don't get a headset in a day. Sometimes it takes, unfortunately, up to seven business days for them to receive that, so that should be taken into account as well.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

I don't want to belabour this—we have witnesses here—but there seems to be consensus.

I, as your chair, am agreeable. Mr. Coteau has a good position. It will come from the full committee, including the vice-chairs. We will prepare it and I'll circulate that with the vice-chairs before it goes out. We don't need a formal motion. There is agreement on this.

Thank you, Mrs. Gray, Mrs. Falk and Mr. Coteau.

Now we have Mr. Royer.

You have five minutes for your opening statement. I will advise when your five minutes are up.

Gaetan Royer Chief Executive Officer, Massive Canada Building Systems Incorporated

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Gaetan Royer and I am the CEO of Massive Canada.

In my 40-year career as a military engineer, a city manager and an urban planner, I've worked on tens of thousands of housing units. I worked with many general contractors who somehow managed—

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Chair. There's a loud noise like a fan. I think it's this projector or something that's making it hard to hear.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

We'll continue, Mr. Royer. It will be adjusted.

Mr. Royer, please start over.

11:10 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Massive Canada Building Systems Incorporated

Gaetan Royer

My name is Gaetan Royer. I'm the CEO of Massive Canada.

In my 40-year career as a military engineer, city manager and urban planner, I worked with tens of thousands of housing units and with many general contractors who somehow managed the chaos of a construction site. Almost every project faced mistakes and delays. Hundreds of times I shook my head, saying, “There has to be a better way.” Three years ago, with Massive Canada, I decided to work on delivering a better way to build.

We need 3.5 million homes. We have all levels of government, including the Canadian government, providing direct investments, assistance and grants and loans. We have the highest demand ever and the highest government incentives for decades. In any sector, this would be a fantastic opportunity, so why aren't we building faster? The answer is low productivity.

Productivity flatlined 60 years ago. We bring a million pieces to a construction site and we assemble them by hand. The industry is fragmented, with too many subcontractors and suppliers crowding each site, making site coordination a nightmare. We can't keep using the same slow methods and expect faster results. That would be insanity.

It's not far-fetched to compare modular construction to cars and rockets. Ford went from one car per month to one car every 93 minutes in 1914. NASA took eight years to build one rocket and SpaceX builds four rocket engines per day.

Those who disrupt an industry that way use the same recipe: They spend as much time designing the industrial process as they spend designing the product.

Massive Canada spent three years designing our assembly lines and three years in designing our new products. We're the first to combine the remarkable strength of mass timber with the speed of modular construction. We trademarked a series of products called “Condo Core” to build modular apartments. We moved every part of an apartment that's time-consuming to build into a factory environment. Condo Core is the kitchen, bathroom, water heater, electrical panel, wiring, heating, ventilation, air conditioning, smart home system and kitchen cabinets. We move everything that's tough to build inside that box.

Think about this. The wall between the living room and the bedroom in a condo apartment costs nearly nothing to build, but for the core, the mechanical systems, that's where trades spend months—on their knees to install plumbing and on ladders to wire lights. Seventy per cent to 75% of the value of an apartment is inside that core.

We pack all that into a module that is roughly the size of a shipping container. Condo Core units are load-bearing, and we can stack them up to 12 storeys, just like Lego blocks. Our first plant will produce 2,500 units per year by the end of 2026. You can imagine that large machines and automation at that scale will never be available on a construction site.

The catch is that off-site manufacturing requires huge capital investment. We secured a $10-million grant from the B.C. government, and we applied for a matching federal grant. Massive Canada achieved national brand recognition earlier this year, when I was featured in the Maclean's “Power List” of 100 Canadians shaping the country. Thanks to my team for that.

One of our directors operated a plant that produced over a million appliances per year. Through his eyes, a 15-minute construction task is 5,000 hours to take away from the assembly line. Studies show that mass timber and precast can save months from framing the structure. Condo Core can save 10 to 12 months on site.

I urge Canada to invest in industrialized construction. Our company has an approved, shovel-ready, 124-unit rental housing building waiting for our manufacturing plant. We need federal government support right now to de-risk our manufacturing equipment for our first plant in B.C. and our second plant in Ontario.

That's my five minutes. I'd be happy to answer questions.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Royer, for being under time.

Mr. Searles, you have five minutes.

Darrell Searles President, Lodestar Structures Incorporated

Good morning, everybody.

My name is Darrell Searles. I'm the president of Lodestar Structures and the co-inventor of the Lodestar building system.

I would like to thank, first of all, the team at Lodestar for entrusting me with this meeting, and I would like to thank the committee members for having me here today. It's a great honour for me to be able to share my perspective on the housing crisis that's gripping our nation and that is causing so much of our population to come under stress.

Lodestar is a company driven by a mission to transform the building industry. The mission is rooted in our belief that every human being deserves a warm, safe, affordable place to call home. Our core values emphasize responsibility, and we are committed to developing scalable building solutions that not only address our current challenges but also foster resilient and inclusive communities.

At Lodestar, we are laser focused on a first principle design approach and on the use of advanced manufacturing. Our goal is to enable every community with the opportunity to have access to high-quality, rapidly produced housing solutions.

As we confront the pressing housing crisis in Canada, we must do so responsibly, protecting our environment and driving down costs, committing to the highest bars regarding environmental and social governance.

Recent government initiatives, including the national housing strategy, have laid the groundwork for addressing these issues through strategic plans and supportive legislation. Unfortunately, we're not seeing a sufficient increase in progress nationwide, affirming that much more is needed from our leaders.

With millions struggling to find adequate housing, current processes and methods of construction are inadequate to supply the demand. Of the millions in need of adequate housing, many of these would be considered gainfully employed citizens, which means the crisis cannot be solved with just more homes. It has to reduce costs.

If we are going to successfully solve this crisis, an immediate and aggressive approach to implementing rapid housing solutions is critical. The growing demand for affordable housing is compounded by rising material and labour costs and shortages. Our skilled workforce is depleting, and the need is growing. Therefore, our response must be multi-faceted.

Lodestar's innovative building system directly addresses these challenges. Our projects prioritize affordability and responsibility. By utilizing our building system, we can collapse construction time by up to 60% and can reduce costs, making it possible to deliver affordable housing solutions at a scale that could solve Canada's housing crisis within three years with the proper support. Systems like Lodestar are the solution, and without them, we don't stand a chance.

Moreover, we are committed to environmental stewardship. Our approach reduces greenhouse gas emissions, minimizes waste and reduces energy consumption, aligning with Canada's broader goals of sustainability. Through eco-friendly materials and efficient construction practices, we are setting a new standard for what it means to build responsibly.

Government support has been pivotal in our efforts. Past bills and strategies have paved the way for some innovations in housing, but a different approach is needed. We must ensure that regulatory frameworks evolve to embrace advanced technologies, making it easier for companies like ours to implement innovative solutions.

The future of homebuilding must embrace advanced technologies and innovative practices. Traditional construction methods are no longer sufficient to meet the growing demands of our population. We envision a paradigm shift towards modular prefabricated systems that allow for quicker on-site assembly and reduced labour costs. This will give regulatory confidence, allowing for a vast reduction in government interference. For this shift to occur, collaboration among government, industry and stakeholders is essential. We must invest in creating new jobs and training the workforce to support these new technologies.

In conclusion, Lodestar and other advanced technologies represent viable solutions to the housing crisis we face. By investing in and by adopting innovative building systems, we can responsibly enhance housing affordability, availability and sustainability for all Canadians.

Most Canadians are aware of the current state of our housing market. Some are benefiting, and some are not. Those who are benefiting are doing so greatly, and those who are not are experiencing struggles that were not thought possible in this great country. This makes me not only sad but also very determined. I would like to encourage this committee to join in my determination to use every influence that you have, every means that we have, to solve this situation and to help Canadians get into homes.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you so much, Mr. Searles.

We now go to Paul De Berardis from the Residential Construction Council of Ontario.

You have five minutes, please.

Paul De Berardis Vice-president, Building Standards and Engineering, Residential Construction Council of Ontario

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

My name is Paul De Berardis, and I am the VP of building standards and engineering with RESCON. We are the leading association of residential home builders in the province of Ontario, and we build a majority of new housing across Canada's largest province.

The motion before the committee today seeks to address issues related to emerging homebuilding technologies and materials, along with construction methods, energy efficiency systems and innovation. We believe that, in the midst of the most pressing housing affordability and supply crisis that Canada has ever seen, we must view all associated issues through the lens of prioritizing housing that is affordable for most Canadians.

Housing is a human right, the most fundamental right of every Canadian. It is difficult, if not impossible, to be a good employee, a successful student or a fully participant member of any community if you do not have a stable, comfortable and affordable place to live.

With respect to advancements in homebuilding technology, our industry is at the forefront of modern building practices. Examples of our leadership in modern building technologies are the vast array of engineered wood products, manufactured roof assemblies as well as off-site panelized wall and floor systems. The voluntary application of energy efficiency programs has improved the sustainability of Canada’s housing stock, and we continue to advance new approaches in recognition of the climate challenges we face in the country and around the world.

The private sector homebuilding industry in Canada has embraced modern digital approaches, spanning from the design stage through to final product construction. However, most municipalities in Canada are far behind their contemporaries around the world in terms of digital innovations. It is an endless source of frustration for our industry that we are unable to digitally engage with municipal planning and building authorities in a manner that reflects electronic approval services readily available in other jurisdictions.

Our industry already has the ability and capacity to perform three-dimensional building design and comprehensive building information modelling with clash detection, practices that are being used across the world successfully. However, these digital technologies cannot be fully exploited much beyond the design stage, as municipal approval authorities do not have the ability to integrate these technology platforms into their existing workflows. These digital limitations and lack of data transparency with municipal authorities that have jurisdiction play a role in the lengthy development approvals process.

CMHC research finds a correlation between the speed of development approvals and housing affordability. Vancouver and Toronto have the slowest planning approvals and, in turn, have the worst level of housing affordability. Municipalities need to be accountable for the impacts of their approval timelines on the cost of delivering new housing, and approvals must be streamlined through digitization.

The committee’s motion makes specific reference to building code issues. Our prevailing concern is that, in an attempt to develop a comprehensive model national building code, the result is a sequence of ever-expanding requirements that have a compounding effect on construction costs, leading to new homes that Canadians simply cannot afford to purchase. The code has always represented a minimum standard with the objective of ensuring fire, health and safety, and structural integrity. Mandating measures far beyond these parameters is neither realistic, nor does it consider the cost-benefit realities of delivering housing products to Canadians that they can afford to purchase.

Current and future planned updates to the model national building code are attempting to implement a multitude of social objectives, using the code as the enabling regulatory mechanism. It is ill-advised that building codes are increasingly being used as a vehicle to implement a wide array of social policies now rather than focusing on the primary need to facilitate the construction of housing that consumers can afford.

The code cycle priorities being carried forward include code harmonization among construction codes across Canada, climate change mitigation through greenhouse gas reductions, climate change adaptation solutions against overheating indoors, alterations to existing buildings, expansion of accessibility requirements, fire and life safety of emergency responders and protection against future anticipated extreme weather events.

We note that the committee seeks to explore policies promoting the adoption of innovative homebuilding technologies and supporting the growth of the construction and homebuilding industry. The reality is simply that, if the objective is to support growth and the construction of the homebuilding industry across Canada, it is not possible under the given framework, as every five years the goalposts are moved in an unpredictable and drastic manner that is not sustainable.

We cannot do both—build more homes people can afford while, at the same time, make regulations that preclude the ability to deliver on the overarching responsibility of providing places for people to live.

As noted, we as an industry are among the most advanced in the world in terms of sustainability, modern technology applications and construction techniques that deliver on all of these objectives while seeking to maintain affordability for Canadians. We hope that the committee shares our commitments in this regard.

I am happy to take any questions. Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. De Berardis.

I also want to welcome MP Morantz, who is joining us this morning as well.

We'll begin with the first round of questioning for six minutes each.

Mr. Aitchison, you have six minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses for being here.

I actually get very excited when I hear from inventors and innovators like you gentlemen in the room here. There's no question in my mind that the solution to this housing crisis must include innovations like you are both involved in. Thank you for your commitment to that.

I'd like to talk a little bit about some of the challenges faced. The concept of manufacturing homes and manufacturing panels in a factory and putting them on site is itself not new, but some of the techniques that are being used are new and innovative, and that's amazing.

We've also learned that one of the biggest challenges facing any homebuilding in this country right now is in fact the approvals process to get a place to put the home, as well as the cost related to that and all that kind of stuff.

I'd like to focus today, though, on the regulatory system. We have a national building code. Provinces have their own building codes, and then sometimes municipalities have different rules on top of those rules.

I'll start with Mr. Searles and Mr. Royer. Could you speak briefly to the challenges that you have with the regulatory system?

You build something in a factory. You go put it on site, and sometimes there's some confusion about who's responsible for what's correct or not.

I'll start with you, Mr. Searles.

11:25 a.m.

President, Lodestar Structures Incorporated

Darrell Searles

Sure.

In our experience, the holdup or the thing that's stopping progress is the municipal planning side of things. The process for that is so long that it inhibits progress. For example, we've had one particular structure built in the city of Kingston for several months now, but I think it's pushing around the two-year process for planning. We were supposed to start installing that back on May 1, and now it's pushed until November 1. That difference in time is considerable.

On our end, we have a predetermined or precertified plant for which all of the rules and regulations are already in place, so we don't necessarily meet a lot of building code issues or that type of regulatory stoppage. We do see that the duration of that, you know, from the time somebody says that they want to build X building on Y site to the time that they can actually even apply for a building permit is the big holdup here. It is sometimes years.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Thanks for that.

Mr. Royer, would you like to comment as well, please?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Massive Canada Building Systems Incorporated

Gaetan Royer

I was a city manager for 11 years, and I know what happens behind the counter. During that time, the City of Port Moody had the highest percentage of construction of any municipality in British Columbia. We need bureaucrats to adopt an entrepreneurial attitude, to be cognizant of the housing crisis and to get out of the way.

One of the recipes would be to have a single list of requirements at the start of a process, not a multitude of committees turning the crank and adding requirements as you go or people behind the planning counter making decisions about what they like and don't like. Somebody would bring an application and receive a list of things to do to get an approval. It should not be about what you like. It should be about delivering housing quickly and efficiently, and making sure that, as you do so, you don't cause issues for the neighbours—you know, things like the water from a site draining onto somebody else's property. Those are technical issues, and they should be addressed clearly and simply.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Thank you for that.

Mr. De Berardis, you've written quite a bit on the overly regulated building industry, particularly in Ontario. You've talked a lot about compliance fatigue, which is described as one of the burdens in the regulatory requirements. I'm wondering, though, if we can focus on the affordability piece of housing.

Does the national building code take into consideration, speak to or prioritize affordability in any way?

October 10th, 2024 / 11:30 a.m.

Vice-president, Building Standards and Engineering, Residential Construction Council of Ontario

Paul De Berardis

In the 2025 code priorities, affordability or cost of construction is not anywhere to be found. This is something that differs from the provincial jurisdiction. I know that, in Ontario, cost benefit and affordability are prime concerns when developing code proposals but, at the national level, unfortunately, it's absent.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Can you tell me very quickly the one biggest change you'd make if you ran the federal government? What would you change in the national building code today?

11:30 a.m.

Vice-president, Building Standards and Engineering, Residential Construction Council of Ontario

Paul De Berardis

I would implement much more rigorous cost-benefit criteria before bringing forth proposals. It's really just a bit of a runaway train now. In the midst of a housing affordability crisis, to not be considering cost at all is just completely unrealistic.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

I appreciate it.