Human Resources Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Chabot.

Ms. Zarrillo, you have three minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to start by saying today that I was reminded of something when you were talking about your son potentially going down to the States. It reminded me of when I lived in Texas. When my child went into kindergarten, she didn't go to play dates alone; I always went with her. When she went to grade one, she went on play dates alone, and I was reminded, almost on her third play date, that most people have a gun in their home, and they're not necessarily locked up all the time.

I had to start thinking about, if I sent my daughter to a play date, whether that family locked up their guns. I used to think about that when I went to work, too. As a Canadian, it never even crossed my mind that I was going to the office every day and a disproportionate number of folks had a gun either in their purse or on their person. When I decided to have another child, I came back to Canada, because it's just too expensive; I couldn't even have a child. There are just so many other choices that come along with living in the United States.

I also hear a lot about research and that the Canadian government does not invest in research. We know that, for Ph.D.s, they haven't been investing. We talk about productivity in Canada, and we know that Canadian companies skim all of their profits and don't reinvest to the same degree in research and development, in capital investments. American companies that come up here want to make sure their Canadian component is not making money so they don't need to pay taxes.

I want to go back to what we can do federally on research and development to get research done here, to become centres of excellence on innovation. What can be done?

[Dr. Marcos Silveira]

I think there's a lot to be done. Specifically, one of the problems that we are running into right now, for example, in engineering is finding a graduate student locally. It's very difficult, because the wage that we pay a Ph.D. student is not attractive at all. Most of them come from overseas. I'm an example of that.

Right now, with the immigration change, this is making our life as a company that sponsors research throughout the universities, throughout NSERC grants, for example.... We are having a hard time getting those students here, because you don't have them available in the country, and bringing them from overseas is kind of a challenge right now.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

What do we need to do as a federal government?

[Dr. Marcos Silveira]

I think wages need to be reviewed, that's for sure, because it's not competitive at all, especially in engineering, because, as an engineer, you're going to have access to better wages as opposed to going to a Ph.D. program, which is a four-year program after you've already accomplish your master's. You are already at least 26 or 27 years old and, in order to get your Ph.D., you need to go over that low wage kind of thing. That's one thing.

On the research side of things, I think, for us as a company, we lack having access to larger grants that are going to enable us to perform those research programs in order to use those data for the industry, not just for us as a company but also to inform the community, as a whole, by using those data, those results, to inform the standards that are going to look after the safety and quality of the products that we deliver to everyone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Zarrillo.

I'd like a little direction from the committee. We have about 25 minutes on the clock. Does the committee want to continue?

We're going to go with Mr. Aitchison, so I'll follow the same slot. If anybody doesn't want to participate, they can pass their time to somebody else, so keep that in mind.

We'll begin.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Are we agreeing that we get one slot each and one more round? Is that fair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

If that's what you want, that's okay. Done.

Mr. Aitchison, you have six minutes.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Again, thanks to everyone for being here. We've heard a lot of interesting stuff.

I want to hone in on the approvals process, not so much at the municipal level but at the federal level, and some of the innovations that are occurring.

I'm sure you're all familiar with Kevin Lee, the CEO of the Canadian Home Builders' Association. When he was here, he said:

We need the provinces, with the support of the federal government, to step in and create harmonization at the municipal level. We also need a national code interpretation centre that is binding, so that code solutions that are proven in one town aren't rejected in the next town.

We also need a less expensive and more nimble Canadian construction materials centre that can help new technologies become acceptable solutions in the building code more quickly.

I hammer away at municipalities all the time about the development approvals process and the outrageous costs and charges. This government loves to pat itself on the back for its housing accelerator fund, which makes no difference in terms of what cities do with their development shares. They keep increasing them, making it more expensive and, therefore, slowing things down.

At the federal level, I wonder if you can speak to what a federal government that truly gets it and is seized with the matter could do to bring parties together to say, number one, the national building code does not take affordability into consideration. The way we approve new technologies and review them is painfully slow, and, as we know, it can be interpreted differently from one town to the next, never mind one province to the next.

We don't have lots of time, but I'd like each of you to imagine you're running the show and you could wave a magic wand. What would you do at the federal level to knock heads together and get everyone in this country moving in the same direction with real action?

I'll start with you, Daniel.

[Daniel Pascoe]

Making the municipalities.... The federal government can do so much, but I think financial encouragements, or other types, normally move things. I think putting limits on the time it takes from a building permit being submitted to being approved would be the easiest thing to start with; start there.

If there are different rules and regulations from one municipality to another, provincial or otherwise, whether they're following the Ontario building code, the Manitoba one or the national one, so be it, but put a time limit on it. What should it be? It doesn't matter what it is, but if you can actually make that time limit a real thing, then people can work with that. They can budget for that.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Would real, hard time limits be your number one thing?

[Daniel Pascoe]

Yes, because you would know what to expect. You could budget production; you could budget labour; you could budget everything, because as soon as that building permit's approved, it's go time.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Force some timelines into the process that are tangible, reliable and—

[Daniel Pascoe]

My opinion is to start there.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Okay, that's great.

Jim, what would you do?

[Jim Facette]

The question was about what the federal government can do, and it's about leadership. At the end of the day, I don't see any cabinet minister focused on construction, period. That's the end of the story.

I don't want more bureaucracy, so don't get me wrong, but if we had someone focused on construction who could bring the parties together in a room and work towards long-term solutions.... I don't have all the steps worked out, but if there were someone responsible at the federal level for moving construction along and having different mandates and whatnot, I think that would be leadership.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Great, thank you. That's a good answer. I like that one.

Marcos, go ahead.

[Dr. Marcos Silveira]

On the innovation side of things, I'm going to start with what we have in place right now. For example, when you don't have published standards available for your technology, you can apply to the CCMC within the NRC. The CCMC process is, indeed, a long one. You're trying to cover something that is not covered by the national building code or the Ontario building code with what is still a long process. The first phase is going to take at least 18 months, and then in those 18 months they're going to tell you what tests you need to do, so it will take them 18 months to tell you what you need to test.

After that, you're going to be partnering with universities to get those tests done, and those are going to take at least two more years, maybe three, and then you will have the results to go back and apply for that certification. I don't think this is exactly something that is going to bridge the gap in technology that is not covered in the national building code, so having a process similar to the CCMC's, but faster, would be my number one wish.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you all for that. That was amazing.

I'm going to take the remaining seconds I have to move a motion, if I could, Mr. Chair. It's on notice.

The motion reads:

That, with respect to the article published by the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, or CMHC, and Mr. Aled ab Iorwerth on October 3, 2024, titled “In 2023, higher rates resulted in 30,000 fewer housing starts”, the committee hold one meeting for two hours with the following witness from CMHC:

Aled ab Iorwerth, Deputy Chief Economist, CMHC.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

The clerk has advised me that it has the 48-hour notice. Mr. Aitchison has moved it.

Is there any discussion?

Madame Chabot.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I was going to say that we didn't receive notice of the motion 48 hours in advance, but you're right.

When did the committee receive the notice so I can locate it please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

The motion was circulated on October 4. We are now on October 22.

Is there any discussion on the motion?

Mr. Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

If I remember, we already passed the one calling for the CEO to come. This is the one for the deputy economist.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Yes.

We have Madam Zarrillo on the motion of Mr. Aitchison.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm fine with the motion, but I'd like to make an amendment that we also invite the Governor of the Bank of Canada to appear at that meeting. We know the reason CMHC is so important to the work that is involved in housing is that regular financing can be very difficult to afford. Thank you.