Human Resources Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We have an amendment now.

We have Mr. Aitchison, on the amendment.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I just have a question on the amendment. I suspect it's entirely likely that the gentleman from the CMHC is more inclined to come here than the Governor of the Bank of Canada. If the Governor of the Bank of Canada declines but the fellow from the CMHC says he can come, are we still having a meeting, or is this going to be held up by this amendment that we have to have both?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Any request can be attached to a motion. It's left to the witness to be called. Just for clarification, the last time we did this, the Governor of the Bank of Canada said that he attends the finance committee meetings and can discuss housing issues there, which he has. That's a committee that he appears before.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I'm fine with that. I just want to make sure that it doesn't eliminate the meeting altogether if he doesn't show up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

To my knowledge, it does not, no.

I have to deal with the amendment of Madam Zarrillo.

Do you have a comment on the amendment, Mr. Fragiskatos?

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Just quickly, we've been down this path before. We know that the Governor of the Bank of Canada goes to the finance committee. Ms. Zarrillo is interested in what he has to say—that's very valid. She can, with respect, go to the finance committee meetings and listen to the governor of the bank. He appears there many times a year. I am interested in hearing from the deputy economist as well.

I think we have a straightforward motion on the table. I'm not sure where the rationale for the amendment is coming from, considering, as you just said, Mr. Chair, that we've been down this path before.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos—indeed we have.

Ms. Zarrillo.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, we have the Bank of Canada governor who has twice denied a request to come to this committee. I was elected by the people of Port Moody—Coquitlam, who are very concerned about interest rates, their mortgages, housing and the ability to put carriage houses on their properties. They can't afford to carry that right now.

I actually find it quite insulting that I'm supposed to go to the finance table because this table doesn't warrant the presence of the Governor of the Bank of Canada. I find it insulting, not to me, but to the residents of Port Moody—Coquitlam, that the Liberal government, the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Housing, is saying to the residents of Port Moody—Coquitlam that they can get lost, that he doesn't care what they're going through in regard to housing and the prices of their mortgages, that if they want to know what the Bank of Canada governor has to say, they can go to the finance committee.

I'm going to say that the reason women don't come to this table, why women aren't sitting at municipal tables, why there are hardly any mayors who are women, is input like Mr. Fragiskatos just put to this table, which is that finance is more important than social issues, more important than persons with disabilities. It's more important than a family, more important than people being able to carry their mortgage.

I see Mr. Fragiskatos is talking over me right now, because he doesn't like to have a light shone on the fact that governors of the Bank of Canada are equally as important to this committee as they are to the finance committee, and that social issues and issues that disproportionately affect women, that matter to women and diverse genders in this country, are equally as important as finance ones.

I'm making these comments only because I am here for a short time, and it is important that a woman's voice be heard. I find it misogynistic of Mr. Fragiskatos to continue to protect not just the Governor of the Bank of Canada but all of those corporate landlords whom I have repeatedly asked to come here.

Mr. Fragiskatos, when I said I wanted to summon some of those people, you said that's nuclear, because we know that gentlemen's agreements—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madam Zarrillo—

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I have the floor, I think, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madam Zarrillo, I'm the chair. Please keep your comments to the amendment that you made.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

This is so important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

To the amendment that you made—

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

He said this would be nuclear because gentlemen's agreements protect gentlemen.

I feel very strongly, Mr. Fragiskatos, that as the parliamentary secretary for housing, you are “gentlemen's agreement-protecting” both these corporate landlords and the Governor of the Bank of Canada. Canadians want to hear from them, and I don't understand why you continue to block it.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Zarrillo.

Seeing no further discussion, I'm going to call a recorded vote on the amendment of Madam Zarrillo.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

We'll now go to the vote on the motion of Mr. Aitchison.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

We will now move to Mr. Van Bynen for six minutes, and that will conclude us.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to share my time with Mr. Coteau.

I know we're talking about the construction of units, but I keep hearing that getting to the stage of construction is where the big logjam is. Has the construction industry undertaken any initiatives with the federal, provincial or municipal levels of government to try to get through that logjam?

When we were having a study on the accelerator funding, where we required improvements in the approval processes, there were mayors sitting here as witnesses saying that the system is as efficient as it can get. To this very day, 15 years ago, I started as mayor, and the very first building project that was proposed in the neighbourhood is finally under construction. How do we get through that logjam? Has the industry done anything to try to advance its concerns?

I'll start from right to left, so I'll go to Mr. Pascoe first and then to Mr. Facette.

[Daniel Pascoe]

I can't talk to the industry as a whole with regard to any sort of bodies representing the industry. I think any change needs leadership. I mean, as my colleague Jim mentioned, be it the federal, provincial or municipal level, it needs leadership, someone who actually wants to change it, someone who actually has the passion to change it, not the reason to change it. He should be impassioned about wanting to change it. Anything that someone wants to do normally ends up getting done. If you've been told to do it, that's not necessarily the result you'll have.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Okay. I'm keen about the industry.

Mr. Facette, do you have any industry experience?

[Jim Facette]

In short, yes, the construction industry, broadly speaking, be it non-residential or residential, has done a great deal of advocacy work at all levels of government to speed up the process, to eliminate the approval process and to make it more efficient—to get rid of the paper burden, if you will, and whatnot. That goes on.

The reality, though, is that the approval process.... Depending on where you are, there are some people who just don't want things to get built, period, end of story. They see things getting built as a negative, not as a positive, whether it's commercial facilities or residential. This NIMBY theory of “not in my backyard” is still around, and it doesn't help.

The industry has done, and continues to do, a great deal of advocacy work at all levels of government to make the approvals process much easier. Having said that, it's not getting less expensive. The approval process, the permits that are needed, the money that's required, and the per-unit costs—whether it's a multi-unit facility or a single dwelling—just keep going up and up, and you have the levels of government that are depending on those fees to do what they do. They see it as a cash cow, as opposed to delaying the immediate cash they get from the developer and then getting it later on in having the housing or the commercial establishments built and getting the tax base there. They want the fees up front. Yes, the industry has done a lot of work and will continue to do so. What will get done in the next 10 years remains to be seen.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

I did mention that I'm splitting my time with Mr. Coteau.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Facette, you spoke a bit about the creation of this minister of construction. We all know that the federal government is responsible for funding, strategy and policy. We know that the provincial governments are responsible for regulation and administration, and the municipal governments are responsible for the implementation.

The federal government today is giving more money than any other government directly to municipalities and provinces to build. We've seen the GST removed from purpose-built housing. We've seen a lot of different incentives put in place. Are you saying on behalf of the contractors, the roofing contractors, that you represent across this great country that you think there should be a minister put in place to actually be responsible for construction? If so, what would this person do?

[Jim Facette]

They say in leadership that it's about vision first and the details follow.

We are also, at CRCA, part of the National Trade Contractors Council of Canada. One thing that we in that group have put forward is a minister responsible for construction in some way.

The vision—and it's just a vision—is that someone, a person, is actually bringing the industry and all levels of government together to solve these kinds of problems and identify options going forward. I don't have all the answers—

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

What's the job of the housing minister, from your perspective?

[Jim Facette]

I'm in non-residential, so I'll defer to someone else on that.

I think that the important thing is to have some kind of vision.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I understand your point.

So non-residential....