Human Resources Committee on Oct. 31st, 2024

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 133 of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. All witnesses have completed the required connection test in advance of the meeting. All have been briefed on how to ensure that they are participating in the official language of their choice.

For those in the room, you can choose the interpretation from your headsets. I would advise any members in the room to check their devices and make sure the alarms are turned off so that we do not have an issue for the interpreters. As well, please refrain from tapping on the microphone boom, as it can cause issues for the interpreters.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on October 8, 2024, the committee is commencing its study of workers in the seasonal industry and the employment insurance program.

Ms. Chabot, we are commencing the study that you proposed.

In the first round we have Ms. Line Sirois, chief executive officer, Action-Chômage Côte-Nord, by video conference; Mr. Paul Pinchbeck, president and chief executive officer, Canadian Ski Council; and Mr. Ferdinand Thibodeau, spokesperson, Seasonal Workers Help and Support.

Each of you will have five minutes for your opening statements, followed by questions from the committee members. I will advise you of when your five minutes is over so that you can conclude your comments.

[Fernand Thibodeau, Spokesperson, Seasonal Workers Help and Support]

What did you say, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Pardon me?

We will have IT call you, Mr. Thibodeau.

We will begin with Madame Sirois for five minutes, please.

[Line Sirois, Chief Executive Officer, Action-Chômage Côte-Nord]

Hello.

My name is Line Sirois and I am the CEO of Action-Chômage Côte-Nord.

Action-Chômage Côte-Nord is a grassroots organization that was founded in November 2003. Its purpose is to defend the rights of workers on the north shore. For a variety of reasons, these people need the social safety net that employment insurance provides in order to meet their basic needs. Over the last 20 years, our organization has therefore worked to organize jobless workers on the north shore, especially seasonal industry workers. I am referring particularly to the commercial fishing, forestry, peat bog, bioresources, recreation and tourism, accommodation, and food and beverage sectors and to outfitters and excursion operators. Our objective is to provide them with assistance and support in their dealings with Service Canada, to inform them of their rights, and to support them in making claims.

We have to stop talking about seasonal workers, since the people we are talking about are workers in seasonal industry. The government needs to adopt a vision that focuses on the business as a seasonal employer. We have to stop thinking about the employee as a seasonal worker. It is the worker's job that is seasonal, not the worker.

Particularly considering the variations in climate across our huge country, seasonal industry is an inherent aspect of the Canadian economy. The seasonal nature of employment is a characteristic feature of certain industries, such as forestry, agriculture and tourism.

According to a study done by Segma Recherche at the request of Action-Chômage, approximately one quarter of the labour force on the upper north shore works in one of the various seasonal sectors or another. In some regions of the country, it is thought that more than a third of the available jobs are seasonal jobs.

Segma also reports that 21.5% of those seasonal jobs are part-time and a majority of them are held by women. That situation means that the women are markedly more susceptible than the men to being affected by the well-known black hole of employment insurance: a period without benefits that can be as long as 18 weeks.

The employment insurance scheme is in a constant struggle to adapt to these facts. Year after year, thousands of workers have to deal with the black hole. Every year, some workers return to the same seasonal job, but the number of hours they need to qualify for employment insurance and the number of weeks of benefits they are entitled to vary based on the unemployment rate.

The unemployment rate, and thus the benefit rate, is calculated based on the number of hours worked in a particular region. While some regions have major industrial, mining or hydroelectric operations that provide many jobs, seasonal industry workers have to work more hours than people who live in a region where there are few or no big industries. The seasonal unemployment rate on the upper north shore is therefore similar to the rate in the Gaspé, while the benefit level is lower than in the Gaspé, given that it has major industrial operations, as in the case of Fermont.

As things stand now, people will need to have worked more hours to qualify for employment insurance in some regions even though they are similar in socio-economic or demographic terms. Seasonal jobs, however, are time-limited. This is the very picture of a vicious circle.

In light of what we have said, it seems clear that the regional unemployment rate does not in any way reflect the situation of seasonal industry workers. We can also conclude from this that the principle of redrawing the employment insurance administrative regions is itself not working. The scheme should reflect the situation in the regions, but that is not what it does. The result is that people are leaving.

On this point, do you know that the north shore is the only region in Quebec where the population is declining? The flaws in the employment insurance scheme are not unrelated to this situation. The seasonal industry issue is an illustration of the incongruity in the act and the fact that the various pilot projects that have been adopted, modified or revoked by the federal government in recent years have not succeeded in solving the problem.

There are numerous administrative tangles and traps hidden in this clumsy, ill-adapted scheme that seems to be designed to deter claimants. It means that in Minganie, not only do people have to have worked more hours to qualify for benefits, but they also have to prove, for example, that they have made three claims in a row, to be recognized as seasonal workers.

They must never have left, however justified, urgent or unforeseeable the situation. In its present form, the scheme does not promote social justice. It is unjust and biased and it seems to want to punish workers who work in remote places in sectors like food and beverage and commercial fisheries, and for outfitters.

The approach is so brutal that last year, three workers went down with their ship and lost their lives on the lower north shore. According to Andrew Etheridge, the former mayor of Blanc-Sablon, these fishers had braved the poor sailing conditions to achieve their quota and thus hope to be eligible for employment insurance.

Action‑Chômage Côte‑Nord and its allies have known for years what the solutions are that would enable workers to get through periods of unemployment with dignity. The government has all the tools that it needs for improving—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Sirois?

[Line Sirois]

Yes, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Your time has gone over. You can continue when you answer questions.

[Line Sirois]

Right.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We will now move to Mr. Pinchbeck for five minutes.

[Paul Pinchbeck, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Ski Council]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. The opportunity to come before you all today is very much welcomed by our ski areas from coast to coast to coast.

Here's a bit about my organization. The Canadian Ski Council is the national association that represents the interests of alpine and cross-country ski areas in Canada. Our mission is to assist in growing the snow sports industry in Canada through consumer-facing programs that encourage all Canadians to enjoy the physical and mental well-being that come from year-round, outdoor activity. We also have a mandate to support our industry with research and data gathering, education and other supports that enhance their business acumen and success.

To open today's meeting, I think it's important to set the stage for Canada's ski areas. We have 240 active ski areas located in all 10 provinces and three territories. We are a national body. More than 2.5 million Canadians actively skied or snowboarded last season. The resulting economic impact was a little over $5 billion for Canada.

In a normal year, over two million of our 21 million skier visits come from the United States and international destinations, making us a large part of winter tourism success for Canada as well.

One of the large challenges we have is that ski areas in Canada are often described as large, corporate-owned entities. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth, as the bulk of Canadian ski areas are privately owned, small and mid-sized enterprises across the country.

Turning to the topic at hand, the story of seasonal workers in our business mirrors the very nature of Canadian ski areas. Our ski areas are labour- and capital-intensive businesses. Ski areas, by their very nature, are also very seasonal, with a winter operating period that ranges from 14 to 23 weeks, or approximately 100 to 150 days, depending on the region of the country.

Severe weather events and climate change are impacting the operating days negatively, with later starts and earlier finishing dates becoming ever more apparent. As part of that, though, we also have to recognize that the greater potential for violent weather changes has increased the possibility of more than a handful of weather-related closures happening in the ski season.

Ski areas are very interested in investing in climate mitigation strategies. Many will have heard of snow-making or snow farming. Other opportunities exist for ski areas to winterize their businesses. Areas are also interested in expanding into summer operations and other seasons with sport offerings such as mountain biking, sightseeing, conferences and many other unique tourism experiences. These summer operations are still confined to a relatively short period of eight to 12 weeks at most ski areas. Fewer than 12 ski areas across the country have viable four-season business models.

The impact on the seasonal employee mirrors the circumstances of our businesses. Bear in mind, please, that 85% of our workforce is seasonal in nature. These employees cover all levels of employment, from lower-skilled, frontline jobs in hospitality and our guest services applications to higher-skilled persons such as grooming operators, lift mechanics and snow-makers, to mention just a few.

The short and potentially weather-affected winter season can make it difficult for seasonal employees to access EI benefits. For example, here in Collingwood, Ontario, where I am located today, the required number of hours to gain access to benefits is 700 working hours. With a short operating season of around 100 to 105 days, there is a slim margin of approximately 80 hours that the employee has to work with to ensure access to benefits.

A late start to the season or an early closure can mean all the difference for a winter season employee, not to mention the closures that are brought on by increasingly volatile weather. It is not unusual here in Ontario to lose more than five operating days per year due to rain, wind, lightning and, believe it or not, excess snowfall.

Summer operations, as we all begin to move to them, can add to an employee's 52-week total of working hours. However, the season is very short, particularly in western Canada, where the snowpack hampers the start of summer operations for mountain biking and sightseeing, etc. While a ski area attempts to move key staff into summer roles, the overall size of the summer workforce is currently less than 60% of the winter workforce, which exacerbates the need and the change we go through.

For employees of ski areas without summer businesses, the length of time between the finish of one winter season and the start of the next can be a significant challenge, especially in rural environments in Canada. We believe extending the maximum weeks of employment insurance benefits would ease the social burden on the small rural communities in which ski areas operate.

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to future questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Pinchbeck.

Mr. Thibodeau, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Fernand Thibodeau]

Hello.

It is my pleasure to be here with you today.

My name is Fernand Thibodeau and I am the spokesperson for SWHS, Seasonal Workers Help and Support. This organization helps workers in seasonal industries, on a volunteer basis. I am here to discuss the situation of seasonal industry workers, who are central to the economy of our regions and who live in regions that depend on these industries.

Seasonal industries have always played an important role in the Canadian economy. They are crucially important in some regions of the country and they provide a large proportion of the available jobs.

Unfortunately, because of this dependence on seasonal industry in growing numbers of regions, it is not possible to survive on a combination of seasonal work and the support provided by employment insurance. Even if the workers take all the work available in the high season, they will not be able to get through the dead season. In a good year, a seasonal industry worker will work for 12 to 14 weeks, which amounts to 525 hours. Even in the regions where the unemployment rate is above 16%, workers will qualify for only 33 weeks of benefits, leaving them with no income for five weeks.

In view of the present unemployment rate, the pilot project is no longer meeting people's needs and is not going to put an end to the employment insurance black hole. The problem arises from the fact that during the dead season, there are not a lot of jobs available. The lack of economic diversification thus makes us dependent on help from the employment insurance program. The problem of the employment insurance black hole—the weeks with no income—leads to further devitalization of our regions. People are tired of constantly living in a precarious situation, and young people are moving away. It amounts to deportation by stealth.

The pilot project launched by the government that offers five additional weeks of benefits was welcome help, but it is not enough. As I have shown, even in a region with the maximum unemployment rate, the employment insurance black hole persists. It has always existed, but for many of us, the situation has worsened in the last few years. This is a result of the fact that some of our communities are in employment insurance economic regions where the unemployment rate is lower and does not reflect the real situation in our local economies.

For example, in my region, the employment insurance economic region of Restigouche-Albert, our small communities depend on seasonal industry. They have been combined with the communities on the outskirts of Moncton, and this brings the unemployment rate down. Another problem lies in the fact that in some of our communities, the unemployment rate is going down, not because there are more jobs, but because, as a result of the aging of the population, there are fewer job seekers for the same number of available jobs.

This is why we think the pilot project should be improved. Because our government is not inclined to reform employment insurance, we have made recommendations to the minister for this to be done, but unfortunately, they have not been accepted. This is what we are recommending.

First, the number of weeks of supplementary benefits should be raised to 15 weeks in the designated regions. Those supplementary weeks would be subject to the maximum number of weeks of benefits that is currently set, which is 45 weeks.

In addition, access to the pilot project should be facilitated by changing the eligibility criteria established for workers to get seasonal worker status. At present, the rules are complicated and arbitrary. They mean that genuine seasonal industry workers are not eligible. We propose that employers state whether or not a layoff is temporary on the record of employment.

As well, we recommend that the map of the employment insurance economic regions be redrawn to better reflect labour market conditions. The map has not really changed in over 26 years and it needs updating. I will take this opportunity to congratulate the commissioner, who has worked hard on this. His work came to an unfortunate halt with the COVID‑19 pandemic.

Another possible avenue is to change the parameters of the employment insurance program by setting the threshold for qualifying at 420 hours' work, offering 35 weeks of benefits, and using the 12 best weeks to establish the level of benefits. A formula like that would be simpler and fairer.

For people who are worried about the potential for these kinds of provisions to be abused, I would point out two things. First, at its maximum, employment insurance benefits do not even provide the equivalent of the minimum wage, which itself is not enough to rise above the low-income thresholds set by the government.

Second, according to the Employment Insurance Monitoring and Assessment Report, jobless workers use only 20 of the 35 weeks allowed, on average. This means that the large majority of Canadians use the program responsibly.

In conclusion, I would like you to take away two points from my testimony. We need help to revitalize our regions outside the cities. Employment insurance will not solve all the problems, but it plays an essential role. It needs to be adapted so that it provides better support for the workers in our seasonal industries and those who live outside urban areas.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Thibodeau.

Monsieur Thibodeau and Mr. Pinchbeck, the chair is an avid alpine skier. I think I've skied on most of those hills.

With that, we will begin the first line of questioning with Mrs. Gray.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today.

My first questions are for Paul Pinchbeck from the Canadian Ski Council.

Mr. Pinchbeck, a few years ago, the Canadian Ski Council reported that up to 30% of job vacancies at ski resorts across the country could remain empty by the time ski season hit. Around the same time, in my region of British Columbia, Big White Ski Resort, which I'll say has “champagne powder”, as they say, said that of the 600 to 700 staff traditionally hired they had confirmed only 250 employees for the upcoming season.

Now, as we look forward to the 2024-25 season, are Canadian ski resorts still facing an issue of job vacancies?

[Paul Pinchbeck]

MP Gray, first off, absolutely, the powder is champagne powder in Big White. I live in the Okanagan half the time, and it's in winter that I'm there.

The answer to your question is that we are feeling much more confident. I don't want to sidetrack us, but we have been able to work with members of the team at International Experience Canada and its visa, often known as the “working holiday visa”, to really bring energy back into the program. The number of individuals from Australia, New Zealand and parts of Europe who are visiting our country and working at ski areas has climbed remarkably.

We also have been working very hard at making sure that we are reaching out to our communities in order to have Canadians employed in key positions.

We are feeling much better. We expect the shortfall to still be there, but we're now talking about between 5% and 10% of our workforce still unfound, if you will, by the time we open the season. It's a much better situation.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

That's great. Thank you very much.

Tourism HR Canada's labour force survey in 2023 found that Canada's tourism sector still had not recovered to prepandemic levels and that the Canadian tourism labour force actually “declined by 4.0%” as compared to prepandemic levels in 2019.

Can you outline some of the challenges that tourism businesses like ski resorts are facing in returning to prepandemic levels through Canadian employment, based on the business you're seeing? Could you speak to that?

[Paul Pinchbeck]

Certainly.

The challenge with many ski areas across Canada is that we exist in largely rural communities. In the smaller population centres around us, there is much more pressure on housing and on the opportunity to live and work within a community.

While we are still growing back in terms of skier visits—we're about one million skier visits internationally short of where we were prepandemic—the ski areas are also feeling the pinch of the housing crisis and of the lack of employee housing that tends to keep our citizens away.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you very much.

We know that with the cost of living crisis many families are barely affording basic necessities, with the cost of housing doubling and a record number of people going to food banks. Costs keep increasing and taxes keep increasing and having that disposable income to enjoy recreational and family activities really is more difficult.

Are you seeing the cost of living crisis as something that might deter people from being able to come and enjoy a day or more of skiing?

[Paul Pinchbeck]

I think the answer to that is yes. As the cost of living has grown, Canada's ski areas are finding that public sentiment towards skiing is still strong, but that definitely there will be a fixed number of ski days, as we call them, in everyone's wallet.

What I'm finding now is that ski areas across the country that have enjoyed a postpandemic boom in participation, with people wanting to be outside in some very beautiful places, are now turning to business solutions: products and services that meet a price point that allows individuals to access snow sports. My own organization does many of those, but each ski area will have targeted promotions to make sure that snow sports participation continues to be as affordable as it can be.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you very much.

We know that, regarding unemployment rates, one of the largest groups of unemployed individuals is our youth.

I'm wondering if you can speak about that, and who many of your employees are. What are the challenges in attracting youth to work at different ski resorts?

[Paul Pinchbeck]

Our workforce is very young. Of course, we also have a good segment of that workforce who are active retirees. We court them as well.

For the young individual, it really comes down to the strong seasonality of our business. Here in Collingwood—I suspect Big White would echo this thought—we are close to major centres that have a large number of competing employers. One can work at any business in Collingwood. We have all the big box stores and things like that, with the same number of hours as a ski area. The challenge we have is the ongoing seasonality of our business. A young person will have x number of hours one week and then perhaps fewer hours the next, whereas they have a much more fixed schedule at the local Canadian Tire. Oftentimes, those become the employers of choice.

We continue to work on that. Blue Mountain, in my backyard here in Collingwood, has started to offer year-round benefits protection to individuals who work on a seasonal basis. They now call them—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Pinchbeck and Mrs. Gray.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, go ahead for six minutes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's very good to be back here at the HUMA committee, which has a reputation on the Hill of being a very workmanlike, consequential and well-run committee. I'm very delighted to be back here at HUMA.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You're using your time, by the way.