Human Resources Committee on Oct. 31st, 2024

[Janet Krayden]

Yes, it has across the board in all of agriculture, including mushroom farms. I know the Canadian Federation of Agriculture provided some good information on that for their budget submission or something like that. The mushroom farms will be passed on within the family, like all other farms, so it is definitely having an impact.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

For my Liberal friends who are concerned about relevance, I'm assuming that the bigger the costs and the bigger the impacts of these huge tax grabs, the fewer seasonal employees you can afford to hire.

[Janet Krayden]

That is true.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Someone doesn't believe that, I guess, but that's okay.

Is there also an issue related to all of these extra charges, fees and taxes? Is debt becoming an issue for your industry? Are members, farms, incurring more and more debt?

[Janet Krayden]

I don't have the statistics on that, but it would make sense, because they are price-takers, not price-makers. It's the grocery stores that set the price for the mushrooms, for example. They have to absorb all of the inflationary costs that have been increasing in the last few years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Aitchison. I gave you additional time because of the point of order.

We will go to Mr. Fragiskatos for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We've been tasked with preparing a study that represents a very important issue for this committee, particularly for Ms. Chabot. Consequently, I am going to yield my speaking time to her.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Chabot, go ahead.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Mr. Fragiskatos, you are correct in saying that this is an important study both for me and for all workers in the seasonal industry in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada. With the passage of time, these workers now find themselves in situations that can no longer be remedied under the employment insurance regime because it no longer reflects the true nature of the work that they do in our economic regions.

We have begun this study in order to determine the actual situation of these workers. Perhaps we should explain what the employment insurance black hole is because it seems to be a myth for some. We hear people say that all these workers have to do is work between two periods of employment. But if it were as simple as that, they would do so. However, that isn't the actual nature of seasonal work. The prime characteristic of this industry is that it will not become permanent overnight. If you go into the inns in Tadoussac or elsewhere, you'll find that they shut down for winter in those regions.

Consequently, many seasonal workers find themselves without a future if the employment insurance regime isn't robust enough to enable them to survive between two periods of employment. This is the topic of our study. It should interest everyone, and I hope that's what you think as well. Thank you for yielding your time so I can ask other questions.

Ms. MacEwen, in the first hour, with witnesses representing these workers, we discussed the 2018 pilot project in which five additional weeks of benefits were provided in 13 economic regions. We have learned that, while it met certain needs at the time, it is no longer adequate in 2024. How then, in specific terms, can we improve the program? We're looking for solutions that the government could put in place.

We definitely can't do it by lowering the contribution rate. That's a false debate. The whole question of funding the regime is an entirely different issue.

What do you think of the idea of substantially increasing the number of weeks of EI benefits or permanently correcting the EI eligibility criteria, such as the single criterion of 420 hours of work, which does not take the regional unemployment rate into account?

[Angella MacEwen]

Exactly.

Make EI more accessible. Over time, fewer and fewer workers are able to access EI. For flight attendants, if they're not getting paid, then those aren't insurable hours for EI, and that's going to affect their EI eligibility.

Have that lower entrance requirement, have a floor and improve the training within. There are transitions happening, and training is appropriate for some people, for example, digital literacy for workers over the age of 45. CUPE has a lot of workers who, since the pandemic, when stuff became more digitalized, are really struggling. Improving our digital literacy training increases productivity, so that's really important and something that we're looking at right now.

Improve the voice of workers and employers. During consultations with ESDC, there were a number of measures that employers and workers agreed on that haven't been implemented yet.

This all requires money, so increase the premium. It's at an all-time low right now, and the return that we get on that investment is very high. We want the biggest bang for our buck. One place to put it is in training and in getting people access to the program. If it's a great program but nobody can get it, then it doesn't really matter.

This matters, again, for climate change, because climate change is going to affect those seasonal industries, and they're going to change. There are going to be transitions, so having that support in place is really important.

I also want to make a note on the capital gains tax. Capital gains comes into effect when you sell an asset, so it wouldn't affect your ongoing operation costs.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

That should interest all the parties because the employment insurance regime is a federal program that was designed to be a social safety net that would protect workers who found themselves in the worst imaginable situation: being without a job.

However, for workers in the seasonal industry, there's an annual period during which they lose their employment due to the prime characteristic of the industry, as a result of which those people are left to their own devices.

Ladies, do you agree with me that the employment insurance regime should be improved to correct unfair aspects since it no longer meets needs?

[Angella MacEwen]

I've worked on EI for the past 12 years. I'm a firm believer that EI is supposed to be a social insurance system. It has benefits for the individual, but its primary purpose is for the economy as a whole. It helps us through transitions faster. It helps us cut off recessions. I was talking to my daughter about this last night. She's 16 and had just taken her civics class. She got it right away.

If that first layer of people who get laid off have some income supports and have some access to training, then you stop the transmission. If they don't get that support, they stop spending money. Then other businesses suffer and go out of business. People aren't spending money in those businesses. It supports seasonal industries and it supports seasonal regions with a lot of seasonal work. It's a really important part of a functioning economy, and it hasn't really matched up with our economy for a long time now. We're due for a real overhaul.

There are some things we can do to improve it in the immediate term, but we do want to rethink and make sure that it's not outdated. Not everybody works nine to five, Monday to Friday, in full-time and long-term career jobs. Our economy has changed. Our workforce has changed. If we want to have a productive economy that can make it through these transitions, EI is a really critical part of that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Chabot.

Ms. Zarrillo, you have two and a half minutes to conclude.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

Again, thank you so much to the witnesses for being here today. You can see how difficult it is to get women's issues on the table, especially as it relates to labour. I appreciate all the testimony we've had today.

Witness MacEwen, you mentioned getting pregnant after being laid off. I'm actually dealing with that right now in Port Moody—Coquitlam. A Rogers worker who was laid off and then got pregnant has no access to EI by 20 hours—20 hours—and the government has refused twice. My staff has asked twice. I'm now writing a letter on that, because it's just so unfair.

Witness MacEwen, you've also written about the intersection between labour and climate change and seasonal workers. You're quoted as saying the following in relation to flight attendants:

The pay starts when the plane backs away from the terminal.... So if there are delays where they’re sitting at the terminal because of these extreme weather events, flight attendants are working. They’re having to help get people water for much longer periods of time and they’re not getting paid.

What do you think about the fact that they're not able to pay in the intersection with climate change now? We're getting into a very busy travel season.

[Angella MacEwen]

Absolutely. I didn't know that before I started working at CUPE. We represent some of those workers, which is how I learned about it. Then I was sitting on a runway in Winnipeg for three hours because of a lightning storm. These flight attendants were dealing with very legitimately frustrated people.

It's not only that they're doing their job; they're doing a very difficult job for an indeterminate amount of time. They don't know when they'll start getting paid. It's very frustrating. It has other implications. As I mentioned, for those hours that they're working but are not paying into EI and not paying into a pension, they're not getting credit for benefits. It really makes it very precarious, especially for younger women coming in, who may be trying to get parental leave and to get those benefits.

I was very surprised that the labour code was still that way and that it hasn't been changed.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

In relation to that, the Minister of Labour has said that it's not their job to protect workers in the labour code. What is your interpretation of what the labour code is for in federally regulated industries?

[Angella MacEwen]

My interpretation of the labour code is that it's to protect workers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Zarrillo.

We're at one o'clock. That concludes the second hour.

I want to thank the witnesses for attending.

The committee will meet again on Tuesday, November 5. Is it the will of the committee to adjourn?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

The meeting is adjourned.