Evidence of meeting #133 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON
Thank you. You got me excited when you mentioned the carbon tax. I was going to continue on, but I'm out of time. Maybe there will be another chance.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Your time is over, Mr. Aitchison, but you'll have a second round.
Mr. Kusmierczyk, you have six minutes.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much to both of you for your excellent testimony this afternoon.
Workers in Canada are paying less in EI premiums today than they were paying under the Conservative government. It's significant. The EI premium rate has gone down from $1.88 to about $1.64 this year. It's significantly less. At the same time, the EI program has been strengthened over that time too. You can look at, for example, extended sickness benefits going from 15 weeks to 26 weeks. We talked about the seasonal program adding an additional five weeks to help out with the income gap for seasonal workers, and adoptive parents having extended EI benefits. Under this Liberal government, EI is better managed and stronger, and workers are paying less in terms of EI premiums.
Ms. MacEwen, as EI is strengthened in a phased approach, what should be the next step? What should be the next issue that we address in terms of prioritizing how we can continue to strengthen EI?
Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees
I have a list.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Can you help us prioritize? What would you say is the next big one?
Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees
We have a list of 10 things to prioritize. One of them would actually be returning premiums to the higher rate so that we can invest in the things we need. The training for LMDAs, the labour market development agreements, was cut in the last budget. This is a time when we're going through lots of transitions in the labour market. There's climate change. There's AI and a whole bunch of transitions in the labour market. In terms of actually reinvesting in training, Canada invests less money than most of our OECD counterparts in training. I think moving back into that space is really important.
Obviously, there are the changes for seasonal workers. As well, women who get pregnant before or after they've been laid off often don't have enough benefits to cover. We've worked on recommending some changes to allow that.
ESDC did a whole bunch of consultations. There were some really strong recommendations. Improving the involvement of the EI Commission and having more worker voices and business voices in what happens I think is really important.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Ms. MacEwen, I do appreciate the priorities. They're excellent priorities and extremely helpful. What should be the first priority, the first order of business, in terms of how we can strengthen EI? From the list of 10, which one would you say is the next one we ought to focus on?
Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Increase premiums and invest in training.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay.
I'm glad you mentioned training, because no government has invested more in worker training than this government. We transfer $3 billion every year to the provinces. We've doubled the union training and innovation program. We've created and rolled out a sectoral workforce development program as well that is industry-led. Every year we commit over a billion dollars to support apprentices. We are making investments in training and skills.
Specifically for seasonal workers, what flexibility could we build into the EI program to allow seasonal workers to be able to get the training and upskilling they need to be able to perhaps take a more predictable job or to take a job that allows them to see themselves through that income gap in between their seasonal work? What flexibility in EI programs could we build?
Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees
That's a great question.
Actually, with regard to the level of investment, if we adjust it for inflation, it should be double what it is now to be comparable with what it was 15 years ago. It needs to be flexible so that workers can train while they're still employed—maybe do some part-time stuff. I actually was on EI in 1997, and I did training through the EI program. I continued to get EI benefits while I was doing my course, so we could have something like that.
Also, not all sectors have apprenticeships. For example, with regard to child care and health care, a lot of those entry-level jobs aren't officially apprenticeships. Building trades workers can get EI while they're doing their training, but child care workers and health care workers who are in those entry-level jobs can't get EI while they're doing their training. We should look at making that work because we have shortages in those industries now.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Ms. MacEwen, thank you very much. I could literally talk to you all day on on this subject.
How much time do I have? I have minute. This is fantastic. That's great. It's a bonus. I didn't realize that.
In terms of flexibility with regard to the EI program specifically as it relates to seasonal workers, working while on claim is an important and oftentimes underutilized part of the EI system. It allows workers to find an additional job and earn some additional income while they still receive their EI benefits.
Can you talk a little bit, Ms. MacEwen, about working while on claim and how we can again build flexibility into the EI program through working while on claim?
Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Yes, I love the working while on claim program. I actually did that while I was on EI as well. I think that, back then in 1997, it was $100 per week that I could earn, and I think that it's still close to that, so increasing the amount that you can earn....
Also, having some flexibility around being able to keep that money instead of clawing the first dollar back—there were some changes that were made around that—will be helpful because the goal here is that, if you work while you're on claim, you're more likely to get a good labour market match. You're more likely to go back faster. If we're not clawing that money back but letting people keep it in their pockets, they're going to be more successful.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk.
Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for your testimony, ladies.
The purpose of this study is to reveal the actual situation of workers in the seasonal industry in various regions in Canada, in Quebec and the Atlantic provinces, and to show that seasonal work has various impacts. Between two periods of employment, these workers have neither an income nor a job, a situation that leaves them in tough living conditions. Most groups are seeking an end to the employment insurance black hole, as I believe the Canadian Union of Public Employees is as well.
The training you mentioned can play a role in this regard, but the idea isn't to devitalize the regions or to train workers for other jobs. The idea is for the quality of those jobs and workers to contribute to their regional economies.
As you said, Ms. MacEwen, employment insurance must have a stabilizing effect in order to enhance and increase the value of that work. It is important for employers to be able to rely on skilled workers who come back year after year. However, the black hole encourages people to leave those jobs and to fill others.
If there were to be any measures in the employment insurance program designed to solve this problem and eliminate the black hole, what do you think they should be?
Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Yes, you're right. Being able to have EI for those workers means that those trained workers stay in the region and come back to that employer year after year. As she mentioned, there's a lot of on-the-job training that you can't get elsewhere. Those employers have already invested that time in those workers, and they don't want to have to lose them next year. If you have the longer benefit period, if you have the appropriate EI region that reflects the economic reality, and if you allow workers to try another job and not be penalized for that....
This year we had an unusual crisis in fishing where there just weren't as many hours. A lot of workers didn't even get the hours that they needed. We need to recognize when there are unusual economic circumstances and come in with something that helps those workers who now aren't qualifying. The alternative is that they leave the region, and the region loses those skilled workers. We don't necessarily want to train them out of that job. Those jobs, as you heard, provide a huge amount of GDP to the economy. We rely on those jobs being there.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
I would add that the economy in our regions is doing better.
Your speech was very interesting, and I think it would make a contribution to the committee's efforts if we could have a copy of it.
You said we need to redraw the borders because the economic regions under the program no longer reflect the actual situation, and you're right. We also had commissioners submit documents on this subject two or three years ago, but those reports were shelved. Why is it a priority to redefine those economic regions in the short term?
Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Yes. There were a number of trial measures that we used during the pandemic, and there's been research done. The department has done research on the impact of those measures.
A lower, pan-Canadian entrance requirement of.... What we recommended was 360 hours, but they did 420. That lower entrance requirement helps precarious workers—and workers in seasonal industries are those precarious workers—by having that lower entrance requirement that doesn't vary based on the unemployment rate, because, as we know, that's less and less reflective of what matters. There's also adjusting the unemployment rate and the number of weeks, so that's recognizing that the unemployment rate has changed and adjusting that.
Then, I think, it's looking at having a floor of some kind. We know that, in all of those temporary benefits, there were other administrative things that make it simpler and faster to process EI. Those, I think, are good as well. They're a little niche, but there was a whole bunch of measures that we used during COVID that had a big benefit and didn't cost a huge amount of money.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Ms. Krayden, you mentioned 2,400 jobs, if I understood you correctly. I believe that some are occupied by temporary foreign workers, but how many permanent employees are there? How many weeks of work does mushroom-growing represent?
Agricultural Workforce Expert, Canadian Mushroom Growers' Association
A lot of the farms explained that, without the temporary foreign workers program, they wouldn't be able to survive and that we need them to fill the job vacancies.
Yes, we have 2,400 temporary foreign worker program agricultural stream workers with the temporary foreign worker program. Seventy per cent are Canadian, so we.... We are a small sector. We have a lot of employees. We don't have loads of farms, but we have about 9,000 to 10,000 workers overall across Canada, and we fill the job vacancies with the proven labour market impact assessments—
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
How many weeks of work per year does that represent for an industry worker? Do people work year round?
Agricultural Workforce Expert, Canadian Mushroom Growers' Association
Yes. They work on the LMIA actually more full time. They take a two-week vacation within mushrooms. For the soft work program, the seasonal program, it's different.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Chabot.
Ms. Zarrillo, you have six minutes.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I really appreciate the witnesses here today.
I note that there have been a number of references to disadvantages and discrimination against women in EI and at work, so I know that the witnesses will understand the importance of the motion I'm about to move.
On February 5, 2024, the CEO of Air Canada, Michael Rousseau, told this committee “I don't think it's appropriate for me to comment on that”, when I questioned him on what he thinks of all the unpaid work that flight attendants do. Then, in October, in response to my question to Minister MacKinnon on flight attendants' unpaid work, he said, “Flight attendants have a collective agreement that sets out their hours and their wages, and it is not my place to comment on it.”
The minister and the CEO of Air Canada sounded strangely similar in their answers, and that makes sense, as Air Canada has lobbied the government 189 times in the past three years. I'm sure the Liberal minister is well aware that Canada's biggest airlines are all benefiting from the practice of not paying flight attendants when they are at work. It is time he stands up for them and closes the loophole in the labour code that allows this exploitation.
Everyone on this committee can agree that unpaid work is unacceptable. Every hour worked should be an hour paid in full. As a committee, we can stand in solidarity against unpaid work and stand up for marginalized workers like flight attendants, who are disproportionately women. When people in powerful positions punch down on marginalized workers, it is us as legislators who can stop it. As Canada's flight attendants get ready to go into a very busy travel season, after decades of exploitation, they should not have to work without protection.
As I said, the government needs to close loopholes in the labour code, and we cannot go back to the Conservative era when the then transport minister Lisa Raitt threatened to legislate flight attendants back to work. Flight attendants never had a fair deal because they were women. The workforce has modernized since then, but it is still disproportionately women, and the Liberal government is leaving them with no protection against ongoing exploitation.
I know that the Conservatives are trying to continue to exploit flight attendants again for political purposes by fast-tracking a bill that favours airlines over their workers and allowing this exploitation to continue. Again, as I say, we can't go back to the antiquated thinking around unpaid work. It's time to modernize.
As such, Mr. Chair, I will be moving the motion I put on notice earlier this week, which reads:
That, given that:
Flight attendants in Canada, the majority of whom are women, work for an average of 35 hours for free every month because airlines don’t pay attendants for duties like assisting passengers with boarding, pre-flight safety checks, deplaning, and other delays. Resulting in flight attendants spending nearly a full workweek every month working for free, even though they are in uniform and taking responsibility for the safety and well-being of their passengers.
Canada’s biggest airlines make millions of dollars each year on the backs of unpaid labour. Air Canada made $2.3 billion in profits last year, and its CEO’s compensation was $12.4 million.
Every hour worked should be an hour paid, and if a flight attendant is at work, in uniform, performing work duties—they should be getting paid.
In the opinion of the Committee, the government support flight attendants by amending the Canadian Labour Code to ensure that all time spent carrying out pre-flight and post-flight duties, completing mandatory training, and otherwise spent at the workplace at the disposal of the employer, including during a flight delay regardless of if the delay was in the employer’s control, is paid at a rate no less than the employee’s regular rate of wages for their work and that the committee report this to the House.
Mr. Chair, in the light of climate change, which we had discussions about earlier, this is even more pressing for flight attendants in this country.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Zarrillo.
Ms. Zarrillo has moved a motion, which was her prerogative to do. It was in order.
Is there any discussion?
Mrs. Falk.
October 31st, 2024 / 12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
Thank you very much, Chair.
We would like to propose an amendment to this motion, given that the main parts of this motion are identical to a Conservative member of Parliament's private member's bill that has been tabled in the House, so I would make the assumption that Ms. Zarrillo would support this amendment.
After “In the opinion of the committee, the government”, the amendment would add “must pass Bill C-409...to” before “support flight attendants”. This is just a simple amendment basically in line with what she's saying, and it's supporting the private member's bill to make sure that there is equity for flight attendants.